Advice wanted regarding right to single sex changing facilities

[onedayiwillmissthis]

Hi, long time lurker, looking for advice.

Today I went to the lovely gym/spa I am member of...and there was a transwoman (male) in in the women's changing room!

Have spoken with the owner, who, never having come across this situation before (the transwoman has only recently become a member) is unsure of where they stand. Owner tells me she wishes to be fair and accepting of everyone.

All well and good. In the pool, the gym, the sauna, the jacuzzi etc...but...surely changing facilities should be sex based. Male & female.

Gym does already have a separate, third, changing area with shower, toilet & lockers (presently designated, disabled, male, female and babies) which the owner told me is open to anyone to use. Apparently I could use this space if I am concerned.

Owner has told me she will be contacting UKActive, to get advice and find out the legalities etc of the situation. Having had a swift look at UKActives website, it appears they have been influenced by the likes of Stonewall & Mermaids etc.

Can anyone please point me in direction of clear direction. Have tried EHRC & .GOV. which seem to say that sex based changing facilities are still allowed. I would like to be able to introduce alternative information, as UKActive seem to be all about ...whatever trans want, trans get!

fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

In short: the gym owner can lawfully exclude a trans woman from the women’s changing rooms but as the law stands there is no clear/absolute right to demand a women-only space.

If the owner wishes to be fair and accepting of everyone they need to consider the females being excluded from all three areas to permit a male person the freedom of all three to take their preferred choice of.

This drives me nuts. The male person involved has a perfectly available option as an alternative for their personal access and inclusion needs. Their needs are met. They are fine. But they want to be in the female space and so feel entitled to ignore everyone else's inclusion and access needs and the feelings of female people who have chosen a female only space for their own agenda. It's selfish. It's uncaring. It's uninclusive. And they have put the onus on females to either quietly give up and go away and let them have it all, which lets be frank is plain male entitlement and dominance. Or the females have to argue back that can the very special males please spare a few crumbs for the lesser beings on the planet if they'd be so very kind.

This is the point I lose all patience or sympathy. If you care about your own inclusion and access then you have a responsibility not to snatch it off other people, and to manage to spare the occasional fuck for someone else other than yourself.

Artichokeleaves well said 👏🏼

EHRC single sex spaces guidance. It’s perfectly legal, if they want to, to have a policy that says the female changing rooms are for people female at birth.

Yes, the law on single sex spaces starts from the assumption that this the norm/wanted and therefore permits you to have them if criteria are met (against the central principle of the Equality Act which is not to discriminate on grounds of sex). In the new climate we need the law to default to requiring single sex spaces, with permission not to have them if criteria are met.

Artichokeleaves... you have succinctly put into words my view much more clearly than I could (see, this is why I lurk)😆

CraggyIslandTouristBoard...really? Women have NO rights to same sex changing provision?

But the gym owner HAS the right to lawfully exclude the transwoman from the female single sexed areas?

So, maybe it comes down to the gym owner deciding whether to support and safeguard females...or not?

There is Sex Matters and EHRC guidance on this - send it to the gym owner.

sex-matters.org/where-sex-matters/single-sex-services/
www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and-gender

Either way 'female' changing rooms should mean female - not mixed sex.

Are your changing rooms communal? Ironically I find the 90%+ communal changing rooms at my gym (there are only 3 cubicles in a very big space) very effective at making clear this is a female only facility. Luckily the gym manager confirms they are split by sex not gender.

My worry is that the gym owner is only getting information from UKActive, that appears to push the line that trans people MUST be accommodated as they wish. No mention of any single sex exemption as per EHRC😟

This is the whole 'alternative facts' thing. Political groups are actively misrepresenting the law and facts about inclusion to places such as this. The EHCR are on the back foot and so is everyone else who has played fair.

It just needs to be asked of the owner: what plans are you making for females who cannot share mixed sex spaces, as TW have three options but females who can't do what....? And if they're from protected groups, have you thought about discrimination claims and oooh look at what Maya Forstater heard from court yetserday, and the several other court cases in progress at the moment that is kind of pulling holes in the whole 'alternative facts and discriminating against females is a positive thing in the name of TQ+ politics and doesn't end in large compensation claims' thing.

FKATondelayo...communal changing with single very small cubicle. (very small but lovely rural gym/spa). I did previously, when joining ask if the changing facilities were definitely split by sex i.e female & male...this question got me some odd looks but the staff assured me...of course male and female.

Now however, I think the gym owner has fallen for the TWAW belief. She did put a beautiful floral 🌈 PRIDE wreath on door recently! Guess I found out why today.

As I understand it, David Lloyd Leisure clubs separate by sex. (They also have a general family change area). If it is OK for them, it should be OK for your gym.

TeenDivided...gym owner did mention contacting David Lloyd for advice so perhaps that might help

You could ask the owner if she is happy setting a precedent that any man can use the women's changing room if he says he's a transwoman. If she lets in some men and not others is that because of their name, how they dress or other ID. She's putting herself in a very difficult situation around gatekeeping.

Should anything untoward happen from allowing all men to access that space, would her insurer be happy? She's happy to take the risk that say a camera could be hidden in the changing rooms with images put online. Could you show her some photos of how small hidden cameras can be. Again, I'm not suggesting risk is from transwomen but from predatory men.

DistaffSide...thank you, good points. I have already asked staff how anyone is supposed to know who is a 'proper' transwoman and who might just be a perv...cos you know men have never been disingenuous in order to abuse. How might we tell? It's not like they have a big sign on their heads is it?

And I qualified this comment by stating that I wasn't suggesting this person in changing room today was a perv...but...but...how could we tell?

The poor staff...they must think I'm a right old nutter😯

If the owner is nervous about protected characteristics (gender reassignment), ask her if she has considered the impact on women with cultural and religious barriers to shared-sex spaces. And it's not just Muslim women - observant Jewish women and some Christian sects are unable to use mixed sex facilities too - so this is a consideration, whatever area of the country you are in, and even if there aren't many Muslim women locally.

Basically, she needs to understand that allowing TW to use women's spaces isn't a Get Out of Jail Free card, if she is worried about accusations of discrimination.

Well done for raising it, OP. I am sure there will be others who are not comfortable doing so, and who will be more inclined to just leave. I anticipate this happening more and more as changing rooms become more 'gender inclusive'. This will of course embolden any male who wishes to access women's spaces - I would perhaps suggest to your gym owner that if the spaces are to be mixed sex this should be clearly signed. This would be clearer and probably safer for women than current arrangement.

PearlClutch...yes I have raised the matter...so I will probably be seen as the problem and end up having to leave. Unless other members speak up.

Have already tried to correct/clarify the term 'gender neutral' as actually meaning 'mixed sex' (this 'fluffy' misleading use of language always annoys me.) Unfortunately the response definitely gave me the 'be kind' vibe😕

Ultimately they will need to decide whether they want to respect the dignity and privacy and safety of their female customers, or not.

IMO, if there is a sign saying women's, female, a picture etc then it is reasonable to assume the provider has exercised single-sex provisions under the EA2010 (see exemptions) so if they allow adult males to use the space they could be breaking the law because you would not expect to see a member of the opposite sex in there.

The 'be kind' thing usually means a well intentioned person who hasn't thought this through.

It's like the whole 'oh if you only knew my lovely friend Sue who's a TW'

Yeah, well meet my lovely friend Wendy who's Autistic, and can't use a mixed sex space. And here's my lovely friend Andrea who was throttled by her ex and can't deal with undressing or being vulnerable in a mixed sex space and probably never will do, and my other lovely friend Sarah who was a victim of sustained CSA and also can't undress when a male stranger is around, and my lovely friend Zarah who is unable to use a mixed sex space because of her faith and culture, and whose male relatives will ban her from coming swimming at all if they know there will be male people in what they believe to be a female only space. They're all lovely.

So why does Sue get to say Sue will not use the available gender neutral space but has to be in the female only space, and that Wendy, Andrea, Sarah and Zarah can just get out of Sue's life and stop having any access at all? Where is Sarah's kindness? Where is the owner's kindness enabling Sarah in this? And right behind Sarah is Luna, who has a beard and smirks while walking around naked in the female changing rooms and is very clear that whatever Sarah gets to do, Luna gets to do too, because TWAW.

'Be kind' is lazy sentiment devoid of brain or actual values. Boundaries are a key part of any good social relationships.

If there's an adequate third space then that is the ideal scenario. Those who are transgender, gender fluid or needing to assist an older person (than 8) of the opposite sex should be provided with a space they can feel comfortable in without upsetting the other customers. Most public facilities provide this or a changing village with individual cubicles solving this issue. It's happened to me in a hotel swimming pool - 6'2+ full make up, long flowing hair (beautiful actually) and a rather substantial male member right next to me changing . I wasn't alone, i didn't feel threatened but I did feel awkward partly because she/he didn't forewarn me, the voice was deepish but not a giveaway for being trans (think Fiona Bruce's voice). I'm not a prude and regularly holiday in Germany swimming naked, but I don't want to be shocked if that makes sense and I had my girls with me who were primary aged

Gym owner has chosen. TWAW.

I've cancelled my membership, which is a shame. If it had just been a gym I could have gone in gym clothing and showered etc at home after.

But the swimming & spa side of it was really helping with my joints and mental health (osteoarthritis, widowhood & pandemic). Was on edge every time changing area door opened, wondering who was entering

Thank you everyone who gave info/links, these were passed to gym but they weren't interested.

Make sure you tell them why, and that you'll be taking your business to one that respects the privacy and dignity of ~50% of their members, and that you'll recommend that one to your friends/family/colleagues.

If I were you I would tell them that they need to make it clear on the changing room door what their policy is. So that women can understand and decide if they’re ok with it. I would also spread the word yourself.

Bannatyne's Gyms are women only changing; third space for trans people.