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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

No fan of Jordan Peterson but his response to twitter "banning" him is excellent.

93 replies

LordLoveADuck · 01/07/2022 22:14

One point he raises in regards to his dead-naming Eliot Page on twitter is the fact that Page's dead-name is on all the movie credits Page did before transitioning. This is an excellent point.Why are those credits allowed to remain?

OP posts:
EcoEcoIA · 04/07/2022 11:37

I don't think the bit you've quoted argues this, though? Isn't he just saying 'like lobster society, human society also has an unequal distribution of resources' and then goes on the discuss that distribution? He's not making the argument that this distribution is based on the neurochemical mechanisms that we share with lobsters - I mean, he might do that elsewhere, I don't know? But not in what you've quoted. I agree he's pointing to evolutionary and biological factors to explain some of the ways that societies are organised but I don't think he's arguing that we are no different than lobsters.

Up to a point Lord Copper. In the bit I quoted he does not directly refer to the same neurochemical mechanisms. You have to read the whole chapter to get that he is writing about the same neurochemical (serotonin/octopamine) mechanism. The bit I quoted 'The Principle of Unequal Distribution' comes directly after 'The Neurochemistry of Defeat and Victory' and continues talking about the defeated and victorious lobsters.

He is not just saying 'like lobster society, human society also has an unequal distribution of resources', he is making a direct comparison and making a statement about the extent of the disparity in distribution of resources, "It’s winner-take-all in the lobster world, just as it is in human societies, where the top 1 percent have as much loot as the bottom 50 percent [11] — and where the richest eighty-five people have as much as the bottom three and a half billion." The use of "just as it is" is a very direct comparison. I don't beleive it is "just as it is". He's stretching, over-stating his case. He overstates the degree to which biological factors affect wealth distribution. Economic and technological advances have made the accumulation of wealth quite a bit removed from direct conflict over territory, an accumulation that can happen automatically, in the absence of the person. For example the Amazon website is there accumulating wealth world-wide 24/7 for share holders, and most of those share holders are passively accumulating wealth, with Amazon employees working on their behalf to compete in the marketplace).

Of course he isn't arguing we are no different from lobsters. But he is saying "when we are defeated, we act very much like lobsters who have lost a fight."

The part of our brain that keeps track of our position in the dominance hierarchy is therefore exceptionally ancient and fundamental. [17] It is a master control system, modulating our perceptions, values, emotions, thoughts and actions. It powerfully affects every aspect of our Being, conscious and unconscious alike. This is why, when we are defeated, we act very much like lobsters who have lost a fight. Our posture droops. We face the ground. We feel threatened, hurt, anxious and weak. If things do not improve, we become chronically depressed. Under such conditions, we can’t easily put up the kind of fight that life demands, and we become easy targets for harder-shelled bullies. And it is not only the behavioural and experiential similarities that are striking. Much of the basic neurochemistry is the same.

Consider serotonin, the chemical that governs posture and escape in the lobster. Low-ranking lobsters produce comparatively low levels of serotonin. This is also true of low-ranking human beings (and those low levels decrease more with each defeat). Low serotonin means decreased confidence. Low serotonin means more response to stress and costlier physical preparedness for emergency—as anything whatsoever may happen, at any time, at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy (and rarely something good). Low serotonin means less happiness, more pain and anxiety, more illness, and a shorter lifespan—among humans, just as among crustaceans. Higher spots in the dominance hierarchy, and the higher serotonin levels typical of those who inhabit them, are characterized by less illness, misery and death, even when factors such as absolute income—or number of decaying food scraps—are held constant. The importance of this can hardly be overstated.

Oh, but Dr Peterson I think it can be overstated.

Gogster · 04/07/2022 12:06

@nepeta He's just posing a question there.

Gogster · 04/07/2022 12:06

LordLoveADuck · 02/07/2022 00:25

Gogster · Why aren't you a fan of JBP?

A number of reasons, one being I'm not a fan of Capitalism and he is.That said I do respect him for tackling Wokism head-on at great personal expense.

Why aren't you a fan of capitalism?

beastlyslumber · 04/07/2022 13:08

Up to a point Lord Copper

???

He's just saying that as a society we are driven by biological and evolutionary forces, just as any animal society will be.

beastlyslumber · 04/07/2022 13:10

(The ??? are for the lord copper bit - I don't know what this means. Presumably some kind of insult.)

TheBiologyStupid · 04/07/2022 13:25

beastlyslumber · 04/07/2022 13:10

(The ??? are for the lord copper bit - I don't know what this means. Presumably some kind of insult.)

It comes from Evelyn Waugh's satirical novel Scoop:

Lord Copper, the newspaper magnate, has been said to be an amalgam of Lord Northcliffe and Lord Beaverbrook: a character so fearsome that his obsequious foreign editor, Mr Salter, can never openly disagree with him, answering "Definitely, Lord Copper" and "Up to a point, Lord Copper" in place of "yes" or "no".

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoop_(novel)#Background

beastlyslumber · 04/07/2022 13:28

Gosh, well, I can't see what I've done to deserve that moniker! It's a shame people feel the need to be rude and insulting just because there's a disagreement. It's often an effective tactic to stop the other person from engaging, but it doesn't actually win the argument.

nepeta · 04/07/2022 15:55

Gogster · 04/07/2022 12:06

@nepeta He's just posing a question there.

Not quite sure which part you are responding to here, but on the serotonin-and-lobster-hierarchies example people are discussing here, the WaPo article from 2018 (www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/06/04/jordan-peterson-needs-to-reconsider-the-lobster/) argues that lobsters are not a terribly good model for human hierarchies:

In the case of humans and lobsters, our most recent common ancestor was defined by the remarkable evolutionary innovation of a complete gut — meaning that the mouth and anus are two separate openings (the importance of this morphological novelty is clear when you contemplate the alternative). The living animal that probably most closely resembles this ancestor is the acoel, a mostly harmless marine worm no bigger than a grain of rice. Acoels’ social interactions are limited to mating — they’re typically hermaphroditic, so each individual acts as both “male” and “female” — or sometimes to cannibalism, if a hungry acoel encounters another small enough to fit in its mouth. I suppose cannibalism is a sort of dominance hierarchy, but acoels don’t engage in the complex displays of aggression seen in lobsters or form social hierarchies like primates. If the common ancestor of humans and lobsters lacked dominance hierarchies (which seems likely, based on what we know about living animals), then our two species’ social behavior evolved independently, and the one can’t inform us about the other.

RoyalCorgi · 04/07/2022 15:59

beastlyslumber · 04/07/2022 13:28

Gosh, well, I can't see what I've done to deserve that moniker! It's a shame people feel the need to be rude and insulting just because there's a disagreement. It's often an effective tactic to stop the other person from engaging, but it doesn't actually win the argument.

No one's being rude! When someone says "Up to a point, Lord Copper" they're not saying you're an evil autocrat, they're making a joke. It's a purely humorous way of saying that you disagree with someone.

Ikeabag · 04/07/2022 16:18

I find JP a mixed bag. He's got some good points... and also some bananas ones (I wouldn't take dietary advice from him, that's for sure, and I'm sure he makes some bonkers points I haven't encountered because I've not taken a dive into his stuff, but I think he'd be capable of a decent debate at least). I'm waiting for a person in the goldilocks zone to rock up and speak sense but it just doesn't seem to be something that gets attention. In that video, the pride thing is a bit incongruent with the rest of his thoughts, I think.

beastlyslumber · 04/07/2022 16:50

RoyalCorgi · 04/07/2022 15:59

No one's being rude! When someone says "Up to a point, Lord Copper" they're not saying you're an evil autocrat, they're making a joke. It's a purely humorous way of saying that you disagree with someone.

Ah, okay. Thanks for clarifying. I've never heard that before in my life!

EcoEcoIA · 04/07/2022 18:02

@beastlyslumber Sorry if I offended you. Cultural capital, one can't spend it anywhere these days. As we are discussing hierarchies I thought to invoke this deferential way in which one might tell one's boss that he is wrong. It's gentle satire. [Lord Copper's newspaper was called The Beast]

The two men dined alone. They ate parsley soup, whiting, roast veal, cabinet pudding; they drank whisky-and-soda. Lord Copper explained Nazism, Fascism and Communism; later, in his ghastly library, he outlined the situation in the Far East. "The Beast stands for strong mutually antagonistic governments everywhere," he said. "Self-sufficiency at home, self-assertion abroad."
Mr. Salter's side of the conversation was limited to expressions of assent. When Lord Copper was right he said, "Definitely, Lord Copper"; when he was wrong, "Up to a point."
"Let me see, what's the name of the place I mean? Capital of Japan? Yokohama, isn't it?"
"Up to a point, Lord Copper."
"And Hong Kong belongs to us, doesn't it?"
"Definitely, Lord Copper."
After a time: "Then there's this civil war in Ishmaelia. I propose to feature it. Who did you think of sending?"
"Well, Lord Copper, the choice seems between sending a staff reporter who will get the news but whose name the public doesn't know, or to get someone from outside with a name as a military expert. You see since we lost Hitchcock ..."
"Yes, yes. He was our only man with a European reputation. I know. Zinc will be sending him. I know. But he was wrong about the Battle of Hastings. It was 1066. I looked it up. I won't employ a man who isn't big enough to admit when he's wrong."
"We might share one of the Americans?"
"No, I tell you who I want; Boot."
"Boot?"
"Yes, Boot. He's a young man whose work I'm very much interested in. He has the most remarkable style and he's been in Patagonia and the Prime Minister keeps his books by his bed. Do you read him?"
"Up to a point, Lord Copper."
"Well, get onto him tomorrow. Have him up to see you. Be cordial. Take him out to dinner. Get him at any price. Well, at any reasonable price," he added, for there had lately been a painful occurrence when instructions of this kind, given in an expansive mood, had been too literally observed and a trick cyclist, who had momentarily attracted Lord Copper's attention, had been engaged to edit the Sports Page on a five years' contract at five thousand a year.

Adelishious · 04/07/2022 18:13

It's a very good stance to take with twitter who are not at all for any freedom of speech.
I find JBP wonderful and think many feminists would benefit from listening to him like I have. He doesn't like feminists, and for good reason, it took me quite a while to get my head round some of his lectures but there's not much he has to say that I disagree with.

SausageAndCash · 04/07/2022 18:20

RoyKentsChestHair · 01/07/2022 22:37

I watched Juno the other night. The movie where Eliot Page played a teenage girl who accidentally got pregnant and then had to agonise over whether to have an abortion or continue with the pregnancy and hand the baby over to a couple who couldn’t have a child themselves. What a universal experience that many young men struggle with.

What? 🤔

A: Acting
B: YesBut a Trans Man may be as likely to have had that experience as a woman

Leeandperrins · 04/07/2022 18:25

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beastlyslumber · 04/07/2022 19:05

Yes, someone already explained it to me, without being patronising @EcoEcoIA

TreePoser · 04/07/2022 21:40

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What does he think has gone too far?

RoseslnTheHospital · 04/07/2022 21:50

It's like the good old days, what a refreshing throwback to see a "feminism has gone too far!" post.

MangyInseam · 05/07/2022 01:51

EcoEcoIA · 04/07/2022 10:20

I'm surprised you write that Peterson has not given an indication as to what level of stratification is to be expected. Here is his 'The Principle of Unequal Distribution' from 12 Rules of Life - An Antidote to Chaos:

The Principle of Unequal Distribution

When a defeated lobster regains its courage and dares to fight again it is more likely to lose again than you would predict, statistically, from a tally of its previous fights. Its victorious opponent, on the other hand, is more likely to win. It’s winner-take-all in the lobster world, just as it is in human societies, where the top 1 percent have as much loot as the bottom 50 percent [11] — and where the richest eighty-five people have as much as the bottom three and a half billion.

That same brutal principle of unequal distribution applies outside the financial domain — indeed, anywhere that creative production is required. The majority of scientific papers are published by a very small group of scientists. A tiny proportion of musicians produces almost all the recorded commercial music. Just a handful of authors sell all the books. A million and a half separately titled books (!) sell each year in the US. However, only five hundred of these sell more than a hundred thousand copies. [12] Similarly, just four classical composers (Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, and Tchaikovsky) wrote almost all the music played by modern orchestras. Bach, for his part, composed so prolifically that it would take decades of work merely to hand-copy his scores, yet only a small fraction of this prodigious output is commonly performed. The same thing applies to the output of the other three members of this group of hyper dominant composers: only a small fraction of their work is still widely played. Thus, a small fraction of the music composed by a small fraction of all the classical composers who have ever composed makes up almost all the classical music that the world knows and loves.

This principle is sometimes known as Price’s law, after Derek J. de Solla Price, [13] the researcher who discovered its application in science in 1963. It can be modelled using an approximately L-shaped graph, with number of people on the vertical axis, and productivity or resources on the horizontal. The basic principle had been discovered much earlier. Vilfredo Pareto (1848–1923), an Italian polymath, noticed its applicability to wealth distribution in the early twentieth century, and it appears true for every society ever studied, regardless of governmental form. It also applies to the population of cities (a very small number have almost all the people), the mass of heavenly bodies (a very small number hoard all the matter), and the frequency of words in a language (90 percent of communication occurs using just 500 words), among many other things. Sometimes it is known as the Matthew Principle (Matthew 25:29), derived from what might be the harshest statement ever attributed to Christ: “to those who have everything, more will be given; from those who have nothing, everything will be taken.”

There is so much there to unpick, but I'll stick to discussing wealth. He argues that the same neurochemical mechanisms that create unequal territorial distributions in lobsters are the same mechanisms that create the unequal distribution of wealth in human societies. But he has not provided enough evidence to make that claim. One way he could support his claim would be to provide statistical evidence that the distribution of the areas of lobster territories is the same (to some high degree of confidence) as the distribution of human wealth. He hasn't done the work. It's intellectually lazy. That is why I find his claim to be unconvincing and unscientific. Taleb's alternative theory (see my previous posts) based on economic mechanisms of investment and accumulation of wealth has a better mathematical basis.

There is much to admire in Peterson's stance on academic freedom, and his attempts to maintain standards of rigour in the precise use of language. But I find him exasperating when he makes pseudo-scientific claims that aren't backed up by evidence. Perhaps I'm unfairly singling Peterson out here as he is such a prominent public intellectual. I'm critical of much that passes for logic and evidence in the social "sciences".

I'm not seeing in this where he's given any kind of numbers that we should expect in these scenarios? He's given factual examples with their numbers but that's really not the same thing. Why would he give evidence to make a claim he isn't making? Do you think he is saying that the distribution of the heavenly bodies is the same as lobster territories,

I think he's actually talking about two separate things here that you are conflating, one being hierarchy and the other being how things are distributed, which can be applied to a lot of other kinds of things as well. I've seen it applied to how much people wear the different clothes they have relative to each other, for example, which isn't about social hierarchy at all.

nepeta · 05/07/2022 02:37

RoseslnTheHospital · 04/07/2022 21:50

It's like the good old days, what a refreshing throwback to see a "feminism has gone too far!" post.

😆

It's funny, especially in a section of Mumsnet which is about feminism.

BruceAndNosh · 05/07/2022 06:57

I doubt the word "lobster" has ever been used so many times in a MN thread before

knittingaddict · 05/07/2022 08:15

This is the man who thinks women are "chaos" and men are "order". No thanks.

Electric6 · 05/07/2022 08:24

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beastlyslumber · 05/07/2022 09:21

knittingaddict · 05/07/2022 08:15

This is the man who thinks women are "chaos" and men are "order". No thanks.

That's not at all what he says or writes. I'm not sure how you can claim he thinks something other than what he actually expresses.

beastlyslumber · 05/07/2022 09:23

RoseslnTheHospital · 04/07/2022 21:50

It's like the good old days, what a refreshing throwback to see a "feminism has gone too far!" post.

I actually think that feminism has "gone too far" in lots of ways. Notably the idea that there are no differences between men and women, which has been an idea in feminism (not just liberal/third wave) for many decades now. The denigration of motherhood. The idea that casual sex is good for women. The idea that men hate us and that we will always be victims. Feminist ideas certainly led me, personally, along some destructive paths when I was younger. I was a good feminist, and it messed me up.

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