DS1 has been telling much younger DS2…

[BrokenToy]

That TWAW. More specifically, Ds2 (10) asked him (20) if a man in a relationship with a TW was gay or straight, DS1 replied ‘straight of course, it’s a man and a woman’. This was in the back of the car so I didn’t step in as I didn’t want a godawful row while we were driving.

I sat DS2 down this morning and told him that DS1 has his beliefs which are like a religion, but factually TWAM and gay and straight mean specific things.

I’m actually furious. I’ve tried to protect DS2 from this bollocks, and fortunately his small village school hasn’t subscribed to being stonewalled at all. But both older dc are utterly indoctrinated (both non binary but they know better than to ask me to fall in line with pronouns). We don’t talk about it around them by mutual consent after many lovely discussions.

I need to talk to DS1 about this, don’t I? Fucking hell, fuck this shit. How do I navigate this without completely alienating him? He’s home from Uni with his girlfriend (theyfriend?) and we’ve mostly avoided any conflict so far. We get on brilliantly other than this one topic.

You tell him straight: you respect his right to his views but he has no right to teach them to his brother.

Do you need to talk to your DS1? I would concentrate on explaining to your DS2 what you already have, that trans women are male and trans men are female, and that sexuality (gay/lesbian/homosexual/heterosexual) have specific meanings and relate to sex not gender identity. Then continue with the "some people, including DS1, believe that...." and make it clear it's an optional belief system.

Starting a debate with DS1 isn't going to get very far, and probably will alienate him.

Starting a debate with DS1 isn't going to get very far, and probably will alienate him.

When DS1 is trying to indoctrinate his younger sibling into his belief system and telling him factual untruths, of course you should raise it. If he were telling him that the earth was flat and he could fall off the end you would tell him to stop imposing his beliefs, no difference here.

He should also be put straight on his homophobic views.

This. I would be giving his homophobia very short shrift. And his heterophobia (he is presumably claiming to be queer when in a het relationship?) And his misogyny (his sex based bigotry hurts women more than men).

Focus on DS2 needing to learn how to critically assess information and reach his own conclusions. Use an example that is not trans related e.g. politics, sport, so he can see why he DS2 needs to hear more than just his opinion before drawing his own conclusions. If you get on in all other areas this might be an interesting conversation. Then drop in that whilst you respect his right to reach his own conclusions on Trans you want him to allow DS2 to reach his own conclusions and not to impose his views as non-negotiable.

This is exactly why I’m so cross. Having raised Ds2 (well, all of them) to be accepting and to know about all sexualities, this flies in the face of all of that.

And I’ve just noticed my typo in the OP. Lively discussions, they were not at all lovely 🤦🏻‍♀️

I agree it is an opportunity to teach your you her son critical thinking skills. Could you make a comparison with nationality or some other characteristic? Ie if you are British, say “imagine your like to eat sushi and watch Japanese animated films. You could say “I feel Japanese” would you actually BE Japanese?””. Similarly a man might like “female” things but does that actually mean he IS a woman? More importantly, you could ask him to think about what whether it is even possible to identify what is a “female” interest and what is a “male” interest.
as for your older son: I think it would be fair to ask him to allow his brother to develop the capacity to think and reason.

Let them believe what they want. They have brains, they're not too stupid to make up their own minds. When I was growing up my parents tried to force me to be against gay, Irish and socialists and my Dad said he'd disown me if I went out with a black man. They too thought I'd been indoctrinated (by 'lefties') because I insisted on having my own opinions. They don't remember any of this now and accuse me of lying when I remind them!

My point is, when you are elderly and approaching death, you may realise that forcing your children to think like you was a complete waste of your precious time as your views or theirs may evolve and change over time.

Is DS1 gay or straight? A man or a transwoman? If he's a straight man, just ask him if he'd go to bed with a transwoman.

Why was your 10 year old son initiating a discussion about whether a man in a relationship with a TW is gay?

What is the context here? Because from your post it’s the younger brother who brought up the topic, not the older one. He was asked something and gave his opinion. It sounds like the younger already had questions, not that your older just started randomly indoctrinating him.

Was your older talking about TW before that? It just seems unfair to be so enraged at him when he was the one asked for his opinion.

Ask your older son what he thinks about the woman who identified as black. The documentary is on Netflix and created let's say a little bit of debate in my household.

TW only think TWAW until they have sex with a fellow penis owning one.

I also wondered why a 10 year old would ask that - it sounds like someone has been trying to influence him.

I’ve just read that link. The cognitive dissonance there is so painful. Surely there must be a better way?