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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tavistock data review

93 replies

McDuffy · 30/06/2022 06:38

Gender change data to be scrutinised

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cedc8a46-f7e3-11ec-84c1-32e852e780b0?shareToken=af430bf386b617dba5cad2f2f4b6b2aa

OP posts:
GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/07/2022 01:15

ResisterRex · 30/06/2022 21:17

Statement by Javid. It is S22 but also the Order is for 5 years:

questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2022-06-30/hcws170

"the Order will expire after a period of 5 years which is the maximum amount of time that we believe the project will take"

And it's for the Cass Review:

"This statutory instrument will make a minor change under the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004 in order to facilitate the invaluable research being undertaken as part of Dr Hilary Cass Independent review of gender identity services for children and young people (the Cass Revieww_)"

So is it going to take that long, or is this a related project?

I think this is significant for a number of reasons.

  1. It's come about specifically as part of the Cass review. The case made to do this (based on what they've looked at so far) must be strong and compelling. To that end, this tweet is saw earlier makes some sense of why it's necessary

Link to tweet

“ The HRA process for authorizing trials required GIDs to submit their research proposal to a medical ethics committee. The committee made several recommendations to tighten up their methodology and ensure good data would be produced by the trial.

GIDs found a different committee.”

  1. They amended the GRA to make this possible. That's huge IMO. We've been told that the case for repealing the GRA couldn't be made because of the legal ruling made on privacy for transsexuals following the Christine Goodwin v. United Kingdom - a case decided by the ECHR. The privacy part of this, in terms of safeguarding & single sex exceptions in the EA2010, cannot coexist & I think the arguments for repeal, or at the very least amendments where necessary to prevent SSEs from being workable, can & should be made.

The fact that the government was persuaded to amend the law to allow scrutiny of GIDS patients’ records shows that it’s not set in stone & this bad law should be repealed or at least amended to mitigate its worst intended & unintended consequences.

Datun · 01/07/2022 09:34

Javid tinkering with the GRA quite so determinedly must be giving the likes of Mermaids, GIRES and Stonewall palpitations.

And yes, if they were as confident of the ideology as they say they are, they would have commented positively immediately.

Whatever is emerging, Dr Cass is clearly concerned enough to get Javid into swift action.

WarriorN · 01/07/2022 09:56

Given that the referrals include a higher than average number of teens with autism, I very much hope that Cass will include this latest report by TT on autism and gender identity.

I've personally been shouting hallelujah throughout while reading.

Unfortunately 5 years may not show eventual late diagnosis of autism, especially if GIDs stopped doing this. My own experience many years ago with a pupil referred was that the main outcome was an autism diagnosis.

But this was a few years before 'I am Leo.'

Autism and gender identity www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4580416-autism-and-gender-identity

RedToothBrush · 01/07/2022 10:09

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/07/2022 01:15

I think this is significant for a number of reasons.

  1. It's come about specifically as part of the Cass review. The case made to do this (based on what they've looked at so far) must be strong and compelling. To that end, this tweet is saw earlier makes some sense of why it's necessary

Link to tweet

“ The HRA process for authorizing trials required GIDs to submit their research proposal to a medical ethics committee. The committee made several recommendations to tighten up their methodology and ensure good data would be produced by the trial.

GIDs found a different committee.”

  1. They amended the GRA to make this possible. That's huge IMO. We've been told that the case for repealing the GRA couldn't be made because of the legal ruling made on privacy for transsexuals following the Christine Goodwin v. United Kingdom - a case decided by the ECHR. The privacy part of this, in terms of safeguarding & single sex exceptions in the EA2010, cannot coexist & I think the arguments for repeal, or at the very least amendments where necessary to prevent SSEs from being workable, can & should be made.

The fact that the government was persuaded to amend the law to allow scrutiny of GIDS patients’ records shows that it’s not set in stone & this bad law should be repealed or at least amended to mitigate its worst intended & unintended consequences.

It is huge to have the Health Secretary spell it out bluntly.

However we are already in a situation where there is a manifesto pledge to change the HRA in this country and there has been a draft drawn up on how to do this.

This government have also said that they also intend to disregard or potentially leave the ECHR in recent weeks over other issues (something I disagree with fundamentally) but should be on everyone's radar.

I also do not believe that there can't be a legal challenge which changes the implications of Goodwin V United Kingdom if there is a provable issue that a lack of safeguarding and single sex exemptions is actively harming women. Simply because thats how human rights law works in practice. It is not an immovable monolith like a giant rock thats been there for centuries. The purpose of human rights law is to prevent harm and it changes. Therefore if you can show beyond reasonable doubt there is an active problem, you can overturn previous rulings and make adjustments to prevent harm so long as the adjustments are reasonable.

If the case is made that harm is potentially being done to children because follow up research is impossible due to a ruling on privacy, then you have a good legal case for an exemption. There would need to be reasonable measures to maintain privacy, however I do think the ECHR would really struggle to rule against the government trying to prevent harm to children. It is a proportionate and legitimate aim.

We are at a stage where the NHS is likely to be sued over negligence over transing children and vulnerable adults with a lack of evidence over whether it is effective, so again the government is acting responsibly to try and a) protect children b) protect the NHS and c) resolve the clear ongoing issue over a complete lack of oversite in this sector of health care.

To put it bluntly, it would be negligent and irresponsible at this point if it DIDN'T take such steps and would only leave itself open to even more claims in the future.

Javid is actually acting with due diligence. And thats in parallel with being in a government which has an active issue with the jurisdiction of the ECHR to begin with.

And honestly, do you see any politician from any other party, actively standing up and publicly criticising over this move? There is a very good reason for the total lack of silence from politicians over a potential GRA amendment: THEY KNOW ITS NEEDED. They might make a bit of noise when it comes to a debate, but they won't make too much of a public fuss. If this comes to debate, it will be very interesting to see how many MPs show up for it, and what they say. My best guess is that many will simply be busy with constituency work or something else round about that time...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/07/2022 10:23

Datun · 01/07/2022 09:34

Javid tinkering with the GRA quite so determinedly must be giving the likes of Mermaids, GIRES and Stonewall palpitations.

And yes, if they were as confident of the ideology as they say they are, they would have commented positively immediately.

Whatever is emerging, Dr Cass is clearly concerned enough to get Javid into swift action.

Yes, it's often what they don't say that is really telling.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 01/07/2022 11:06

Have StoneMermaids had enough time to finish their emergency meeting to come up with a statement that says this is what they have been fighting for yet?

Oestrogelsmuggler · 01/07/2022 11:34

@Whatwouldscullydo

Why can't people accept that their transition matters to them and them only. And it's not the job if everyone else to be involved in it some how. You cant claim something is mot a mental.health condition then behave as if it is by getting triggered etc when reality is acknowledged. You cannot have it both ways.

Because narcissism.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/07/2022 13:50

So it seems this amendment to the law isn't all that it seems.

Link to tweet thread

"The Government’s new legislation allowing researchers with the Cass Review to access the medical records of young people who have been assessed at the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) will, it seems, capture only a small minority of those seen by the service...

The legislation (Link below) will encompass ONLY those young people who transitioned and ‘have since gone on to apply for or be issued’ with a Gender Recognition Certificate. It is NOT a follow-up of the estimated 9,000 young people assessed by GIDS, as has been reported

The Gov estimates the maximum number of people directly affected by the law change is 754 (the total number of people born from 1990 onwards have been issued with Gender Recognition Certificates) – roughly 8% of those who saw GIDS between 2009 and 2020

While Gov says changes will help to plan service provision 'from a world-leading clinical evidence base, to promote better health outcomes' for those who use them, it appears the vast majority of young people seen by GIDS will not be followed-up."

OldCrone · 01/07/2022 14:03

Is it not the case that they already have access to the health records of those who don't have a GRC, and this change to the GRA is just so that those who do can also be included?

WarriorN · 01/07/2022 14:04

Cass review update:

cass.independent-review.uk/research/

WarriorN · 01/07/2022 14:04

Tweet said:

Following recent interest in the latest stages of our Review, we have added some new updates to the website you may be interested in – you can see them here

twitter.com/thecassreview/status/1542844653455671302?s=21&t=aeatEztWAKhomJzyZsf26g

ResisterRex · 01/07/2022 14:14

OldCrone · 01/07/2022 14:03

Is it not the case that they already have access to the health records of those who don't have a GRC, and this change to the GRA is just so that those who do can also be included?

I would have thought this is the case and that the law change was to have a complete picture.

Still no update on the final Cass report then, though.

dunBle · 01/07/2022 16:27

Back on to the "changing your NHS number when you transition" for a minute. What happens if you detransition? Do you get your old NHS number back, or do the issue you with another new one?

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 01/07/2022 16:32

OldCrone · 01/07/2022 14:03

Is it not the case that they already have access to the health records of those who don't have a GRC, and this change to the GRA is just so that those who do can also be included?

Makes sense.

For a minute I thought it was a weird narrowing of the scope of the review.

BenCoopersSupportWren · 01/07/2022 16:36

dunBle · 01/07/2022 16:27

Back on to the "changing your NHS number when you transition" for a minute. What happens if you detransition? Do you get your old NHS number back, or do the issue you with another new one?

IIRC - and if I'm wrong, someone please correct me - but I believe that one of the many failings of the badly-thought-out GRA is that there is no legal mechanism to reverse a GRC. Presumably because the declaration is that you plan to live 'in your acquired gender' or whatever the exact wording is, for the rest of your life.

rogdmum · 01/07/2022 17:02

Technically there is a legal mechanism to reverse a GRC. It is section 3.6 here (which oddly was opening the other day, but I can’t get the link to work now):

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/981444/t455-eng.pdf

Section 3.6 says:

"3.6 Legally reverting to your birth gender: If a person in receipt of a full GRC wishes to revert to their birth gender they must make an application for a GRC and meet the requirements of the GRA in the same way they did when making their previous application.

However, in practice, the GICs don’t know what this means, what they need to do, what detransitioners need to do etc and you just kind of hit a wall with it. There’s no clarity and no co-ordination.

rogdmum · 01/07/2022 18:08

I should also add, the tribunal area that would be in charge of processing a GRC says there is no way to do so, that it is a one way process!

Complete mess.

rogdmum · 01/07/2022 18:08

reversing a GRC not processing

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