I was at a party last night

[BrokenToy]

With lots of people I either don’t know or have only met once (old friends of Dh, and they live hundreds of miles away from us, we travelled up to the party).

No topic was taboo, except one. We had fabulous tipsy conversations about politics covering the strikes, Brexit, Johnson. Allsorts of topics. Many differing views and a very intelligent cohort. (We did talk about other stuff as well, it was a fun party)

However, several times across different conversations with different people, the trans thing came up and EVERY SINGLE TIME the person I was talking with said oh I’m not not getting into that/I’ll be in trouble if I say what I think/don’t get me started I’ll never stop and it’ll offend somebody.

Every single person had the same views as I do (that the whole thing is nonsense) but hardly anyone would get into any sort of meaningful conversation. I didn’t keep bringing it up or anything, it sort of naturally flowed into conversations but it was striking that as soon as it was mentioned the topic was blocked.

’No debate’ really has had the intended effect, even among a bunch of educated professionals in their late 40s/50s. It was quite chilling really.

I can’t talk about it at home as I have two very woke young adult kids. DH and I discuss it obviously. But it was interesting to me that people who will happily and animatedly tell you why they disagree with you on the strikes, or rant about Boris, or any other hot topic, will not discuss trans issues or women’s rights. It’s completely taboo.

What I realised from Brexit.’is that we all live in a very selective bubble in terms of opinions. Genuinely, the biggest shock of my life, after getting knocked up on a beach in Cyprus, was probably Brexit.

It’s the same with the trans stuff. Social media is a place for the young really, and if you live the majority of your social like through that medium, you might be completely excused for thinking that absolutely everybody is pro self ID and the erosions of women’s rights.

IRL I talk about this to just about everybody I converse with and apart from my sister 🙄 - I have never ever come across anybody who thinks that women’s rights should be eroded to satisfy a tiny minority. Sadly many are unaware that this is an issue unless they are politically astute.

The problem we have is that these political issues are being driven entirely by one section of society - young online types - and debate is seen as taboo. Easy political crowd pleaser really to pursue whatever is a popular online opinion. We all need to force debate and to not become cowed by these fascists but it does not help with even sites like mumsnet close down this sort of discussion far far too easily. Ultimately, revenue streams are being protected at the cost of democracy and freedom of speech.

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Bloody hell @DustyTulips, fascinating.

I just don't talk about it. I have had 3 conversations with 3 groups of friends, no minds were changed but we came near to a row each time. I have a GC WhatsApp group and I have here, plus I have a friend who used to work at GIDS. Thats it. I'm interested in specific issues (sport, statistics, residential services for women, children including the criminal underfunding of generalist CAMHS) but obviously this means I am TWATW and that disqualifies me from any opinion on anything. It's a very deliberate purity test to avoid alliances being formed.

I noticed how it never comes up on have I got news for you. Never.

But in the credits is a little cartoon of JK Rowling...... So, they know exactly what's going on, band its big enough to be in the credits. But they have never mentioned it....

Op, most people are gender critical,especially now. But it only takes one person to disagree and the whole evening can go very sour. We have probably all seen this by now....

Although I remember one evening, a while ago now, I was getting so frustrated with my pals talking about this and saying all the mantras 'twaw, be kind, they just want to pee etc', and I was the one getting annoyed so they changed the subject....

private Eye seems quite GC so I guess Hislop has been told to keep his gob shut by the BBC. Shame he’s not a bit braver, eh

I would imagine it’s because this topic can be career ending. I also wouldn’t discuss it amongst friends if I had a career.

And thats the thing that scales me that this ideology of ruling by fear of 'cancellation' will never go away. Parents not allowed their own opinions without threat of their children stopping talking to them. Is there any other subject that your children get to control the narrative about?

I hope IH is playing a longer game.

I hope there is a longer game....

I find total silence to be very powerful in the midst of a ‘be kind’ virtue-signalling session.

Delivered meaningfully, silence can actually stop a person in their tracks, mid-flow. It’s like they can suddenly hear themselves talking shit.

I find it satisfying.

No doubt, but it makes his whole fearless challenger of authority schtick a whole lot less convincing.

I wonder if people have absorbed the chilling effect of social media cancellations and even job losses
This is it. I can’t afford to get reported to my boss and disciplined over a private comment made down the pub at the weekend. I can’t afford to lose my job over personal opinions. I don’t want to be arrested and questioned by the police. I certainly don’t want to be harassed and receive death threats. I have kids, I have to protect my family by staying silent.

Anything less than TWAW is transphobic, so expressing that at a party is like walking in and announcing you're racist. That's how effective the slogans approach has been.

Amongst my friends I know who is GC, who is TWAW, and who hasn't been paying attention. I can see that the TWAW ones don't fully grasp it (eg one wondering loudly at a women's event why there was a man there when the event was clearly billed as being 'inclusive' and it was obvious this person would identify as non-binary - this was some years ago so I suspect now she would know to suppress those thoughts) but these are people who are generally fairly non-questioning and have accepted the narrative that anything else is phobic.

I have also noticed that it never comes up on HIGNFY and agree it is because it is career ending, and likely also because the target audience tends to be left leaning. It would be interesting to see what would happen if Hislop got into it, tbh I think Merton would be more likely to get away with it. Either way I wish we had some strong left leaders willing to speak up about this. I think there are so many on the left who can see the issues here but are scared to speak out for fear of being seen as bullies. The victim narrative has been very effective.

I have kids, I have to protect my family by staying silent.

I understand the sentiment, I too don't express my views forcefully in all situations. However, I think I agree with Kellie-Jay Keen that it's very brave to not speak out.

Colette Colfer is an Irish academic who studies world religions; she wrote an article about the parallels between religious belief and gender beliefs
www.broadsheet.ie/2022/04/26/colette-colfer-a-new-religion/
"in Ireland, when it comes to gender identity theory, it is becoming difficult to adopt the phenomenological perspective as there is increasing pressure to accept this theory uncritically......... To suggest that gender identity theory is a new religion is not to denigrate the theory."
Interestingly, she was originally due to publish her article in the Irish Times (mainstream broadsheet) but was pulled at short notice.

Though recently tbh I find I literally only have to mention “gender identity stuff” to any women I know over 40, and she immediately rolls her eyes and goes into a satisfying rant about how ridiculous it all is, and then we have an enjoyable time terfing away for a while

That's my experience in my circles too. Which give me hope.

I work in a very left liberal sector, which up until now I have always appreciated, because I am left liberal! I am now GC ( wasn't always), but it would definitely be career ending for me if I expressed it in the workplace or on social media. I once hinted at it, and people reacted as if I was supporting apartheid or the KKK. I was shouted down with cries of "straw men" when I brought up issues like sport, prisons and rape centres. There is an absolute terror of not being 'inclusive" and people compare it to not including black or brown people, when it's not the same at all. But critical thinking is scarce these days.

Oh and also, I really don't want to be called a "cis woman" but protesting against it makes for all kinds of unpleasant situations.

I loathe "cis woman"

I used to talk more openly but a local activist in a position of power called for all GC feminists where I work to be sacked - can't really be more specific than that- and nobody objected. I can't speak openly. I'm scared of being reported. It really is chilling.

Yes, I've thought that too. A lot of people are keeping their heads down, saying the right thing and waiting for the tide to turn.

the trans thing came up and EVERY SINGLE TIME the person I was talking with said oh I’m not not getting into that/I’ll be in trouble if I say what I think/don’t get me started I’ll never stop and it’ll offend somebody.

It might not feel like it, but this ^^ is actually progress.

Once upon a time, you wouldn’t have even been able to allude to any sort of dissent on this issue.

Honestly, to even hint at this is genuinely is progress. The blinkers are coming down, and the dam is slowly giving way.

Keep the faith.

A lot of people are keeping their heads down, saying the right thing and waiting for the tide to turn.

True. And I acknowledge that we're in danger of the tide not turning in time to save some people. We may end up with similar consequences to other times in history when we all went along with the unacceptable, waiting for the tide to turn. Hopefully, they'll be a much smaller scale yet devastating for those at the heart of it.

Having similar experiences here - it comes up, and women immediately say they can't speak.

Female socialisation has a fuckton to answer for; an acquaintance related being v uncomfortable when a male walked into her gym changing room while she was undressed. Her daughter had made her cry with the 'oh but imagine how she felt' line.

I pointed out that the one thing this person clearly hadn't thought was 'I'm going to upset and alarm a bunch of women, I don't want to do that'. And therefore was thinking along the lines of 'fuck them, what I want matters more'.

The relief as she said 'you're right, women matter, I'm a MOTHER not a birthing person' was palpable.

I learned to keep my opinions to myself (apart from with one particular group, which includes my DP, who are all firmly GC) after a party at my home. My own brother was almost spitting with disgust at me, and insulted me in the worst ways. My sister was backing me up for all she was worth and he still persisted. Eventually I threw him out and I haven't really spoken to him since, although on the few occasions I have had to he makes his opinions of me very clear.

Apparently some 'friend' of his, who was a transwoman, was more worthy of support and consideration than his own sisters and nieces. My sister and I wonder if he, in fact, is the 'friend'- there are some grounds for believing it's a possibility. But he and his cohorts are painfully 'woke', so perhaps it's just that.

It was a real shock to me, as I thought I knew him well enough to know that even if his views differed, he was intelligent enough and loved his sisters and nieces enough to have a civilised debate about it.

And perhaps that's part of the issue- that even people you think you know well can turn out to be such complete and utter wankers on this topic, in the current climate.

I'd like to think that the second time after meeting me that would change, but I doubt I am as good as I'd like to be.