Jane Clare Jones on navigating non-agreement/infighting

[EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]

Jane Clare Jones on navigating non-agreement/infighting

I haven't said much over the last few days, because, like many of you, I find it all incredibly distressing.

I understand the desire for us all to stand together, and share the awareness that division and infighting is a gift to those that we are standing against.

I feel however, that this kind of conflict arises not because we don't all agree about certain things, but as a result of how we navigate the fact that we don't all agree about certain things. It has always been extremely important to me that as a movement, we are okay with

the fact that we don't all agree with each other, that we are free to question, discuss and respectfully differ, that we respect other people's boundaries, and what they say about what matters to them.

So a few thoughts:

1. This is a diverse movement comprised of people from all kinds of backgrounds, with all kinds of different skills, expertise, and talents. The work that is has taken to built this movement has needed all of those different skills and talents.

Women have put themselves to the task of using their own skills and talents to make a contribution to this fight in a spectacular range of ways, and with huge amounts of enthusiasm and imagination.

All of it matters.

We have tied ribbons, made speeches, dressed up, handed out

leaflets, organised meetings, written to MPs, given parliamentary evidence, made videos, composed songs, sent in FOIs, written reports, argued on Twitter, lobbied behind the scenes, done policy analysis, put up billboards, taken court cases, spoken to our friends in the pub,

embroidered banners, dressed up as suffragettes and dinosaurs, spent hours filling in consultations...

It all matters, it's all needed.

We are trying to shift a massive edifice of ideology, and discourse, and policy capture, which is backed up with significant amounts of power.

It has to be attacked on all levels, in multiple ways, by people using many different skills.

Getting the message out to the general public is a massively important part of that battle.

I believe that as a movement, we have accomplished that. This issue is now fully breaking

through to the mainstream. I believe there are many reasons why we have been successful in doing that. Part of the reason is because we have very successfully taken apart the nonsense that is gender identity ideology, and have used clear arguments and data and analysis to

demonstrate that there are numerous problems with this ideology and with its implications. We have also consistently shown all the ways in which this ideology, while masquerading as progressive, is actually based on very conservative ideas about gender, is homophobic,

is against the principles of materialist and class based politics, is individualist and consumerist, and has wrapped itself up in the discourse of anti-racism, while actually using extremely racist arguments and imposing itself all over the world in an imperialist way.

I think these arguments are true, and I think they matter.

I also think all the detailed legal and policy work matters.

I also think getting the message out to the public, in as many ways as possible, matters.

If we are to all PUUUULLLL together, we need it all.

I am concerned, and troubled, by a narrative which is gaining increasing traction, that suggests that there is really no need for arguments, or any thinking really, that everything is very simple, that all that is necessary to win this fight is to communicate a very simple

message to the public, that anything else is a distraction, or is just pointless, or is elitism.

I believe that that is a misrepresentation of how this movement has been built, and why it has been more successful in this country than in other places.

I believe we have been successful because we have done all the many things we have needed to do, and all of them are valuable.

2. As I suggested above, I also believe that one of the reasons this country was able to mount early and effective resistance to transgender ideology,

is because we built this movement on the basis of a critique of this ideology informed by progressive political values, by commitment to the rights of women, and gay people, and the effects of this ideology on the most marginalised and vulnerable groups of women, including

survivors of male violence, sexual exploitation, and women in prison.

The development of grassroots resistance in America has been terribly hamstrung by their culture war and political polarisation, and by how hard it has been for

American women to get the message out that trans ideology is not a progressive political project, and that it profoundly damages the interests of many groups 'progressive' people are supposed to care about.

I believe our ability to do that has been a key part of our strength,

and why we have been more successful here in getting our public institutions to start listening to our concerns.

While, as we know, there is a lot of not-really-understanding-that-women-are-people at work in the capture of our institutions and political parties, this is a basic

feature of a patriarchal society, and spans the political spectrum. I do however think that many of the people accepting trans ideology inside institutions do so because they unthinkingly think it is progressive and 'kind.'

If we remember the results from the 'More in Common'

survey a couple of weeks ago, what we saw was that the British public's basic attitude towards this issue was one of generalised tolerance and a wish to be accepting, but which, when you drill down into it, understands the need to draw certain boundaries where 'sex matters.'

That is, is was basically a moderate GC position, which is what we pointed out to the media commentators who tried to frame this as a conflict between two extreme groups.

That is, I believe that the message that will most effectively carry public support for our concerns is

one that adopts a basic 'live and let live' position, but which draws the very clear boundaries where we need to in the places necessary to protect the interests of women, gay people, and to prevent the damage being done to gender non conforming children.

I know we are all very angry, and tired, and distressed by this conflict. But I do believe it would be a grave strategic, and political error, at the point where we are making so much progress, to adopt a political position that I don't think is actually in tune with the public's

attitudes on this issue.

I also think it would be a grave strategic error with respect to making progress uncapturing our institutions, who have a public sector duty to recognise the interests of various different constituencies.

I have seen a fair number of comments over recent days to the effect that this is a single issue campaign, and that we have no particular politics.

In some significant ways this is true. At this point there are a very large number of different groups involved in the fight

against trans ideology, and many people are coming from many different places. In that sense, what is called the 'gender critical movement' is in many ways, no longer, the gender critical movement.

As we gained more traction, this was always going to happen. Much of the

discord we are seeing is perhaps a result of what happens as we expand far beyond the original constellations of women who have been involved in this fight for so many years, and of some political tensions in those constellations that we have never been able

to make our peace with.

3. For me, personally, and with respect to whatever role I have played and will play in the work we are all doing... the question of what we stand for, and why we are opposing this ideology, and from what political ground, is important.

I respect the right of other people to understand this as a single issue, to think that this is not political in a larger sense, or to assert that there is no political belief they hold that they will not compromise or abandon in order to win this fight.

I understand that some people think that we must take any help that we can get because of the severity of the situation, that we can deal with the consequences of any political principles we may have compromised later, and that not doing so is 'purity politics.'

I am not arguing that within the political landscape of this country, I have a problem with us working in broad political alliances.

However, I think it is important that within the context of this country, we maintain some portion of the movement that stands on the ground of

the political values on which many of us have built this movement.

I believe this not only as a matter of political principle, but because I believe it is key to our strength, why we have been successful, and how we can appeal the British public.

In addition to how much I hate seeing discord in a movement which is so often mutually supportive, sharp, charitable, and hilarious, I have found the last few days distressing because it has felt to me that a demand is being made that we all agree to an interpretation of this

movement that understands it as a single issue, and as without any further political commitments.

As I have said, I believe that losing that part of the movement that critiques trans ideology on the basis of all the ways it is regressive would be a grave strategic error.

That is also the basis of all the arguments I have made, it is the core of whatever work I have contributed to this fight, and all the ways I have tried to explain why the lies activists tell about us are lies.

So, if this fight is not, or is no longer, to be at least in part

grounded in certain political values, I have questions about where my work fits into it all.

I have been very tired for a good long while now, and was planning on taking most of the summer off to try and recharge.

I think now is a good time for me to take a little step back for the time being, to let the dust settle, to let this play out, and to see where we find ourselves.

The women's movement is my life. Thinking about why we live in such an unjust, exploitative, dominating, destructive

culture is my life. Trying to work out how we could organise the world to support women, to support the life they make and nurture, to protect them and the planet from exploitation, is what matters to me.

I will never stop trying to carve out spaces, whatever the opposition, to do that work, and to share it, with so rage and so much joy, with the women who want to hear it.

All my love, Jane xxx

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1540274208881741826.html

@ArcheryAnnie The difference is, a lot of this thread has been focused on the different schools of thought within the GC movement currently, and not aimed at one particular person. Yes of course JCJ has been mentioned by name, because her thread sparked up debate, and that's healthy, but so have WPUK and KJK, with varying POV. It's not one way traffic or a pile on aimed at one person.

Also, people have agreed to disagree and moved on to other points.

I dunno, a thread with JCJ's name on it, with comments like "JCJ - I see you", etc, etc - if you are going to make bullying accusations, then this does look very much like bullying.

But I think the productive thing to do would be to shelve the bullying accusations altogether, and focus on approach and policy.

We do need everyone, and it's not elitism to point out, tongue in cheek, that we are sat online talking about the varying groups in GC movements whilst some people are out there physically working today on behalf of the movement.

OP even included herself in that mix. How is that "elitism"?

It was a factual observation.

That sounds like a subjective POV, and isn't backed by any objective reading of this thread, which can be done by anyone. If you want to talk about approach and policy we can do, if you want to level spurious accusations of "bullying" purely as a defence mechanism for JCJ, go for it, but yes, people can "see" through that too.

We do need everyone, and it's not elitism to point out, tongue in cheek, that we are sat online talking about the varying groups in GC movements whilst some people are out there physically working today on behalf of the movement.

But this is elitism - it posits that standing in a park is somehow organisationally superior to doing anything else. I'm glad it's happening! But it isn't intrinsically more valuable than eg phone calls made, letters written, Internet arguments made.

It's ok, that's fair. I was arsing about.

The point still remains that there are feminists and feminist organisations who appear to think some ways of getting things done are worthier than others, and who even as we speak, are no doubt monitoring Speakers Corner, ready to tweet their disapproval. They've been doing it for a long time. You might think it's a shame that Julia Long (or whoever fired the first shot this week) couldn't let it go for the sake of the greater good. I might even agree with that. But I can't honestly say I blame her.

if you want to level spurious accusations of "bullying"

I wasn't the one who introduced the issue of bullying! I am just pointing out that I you describe JCJ's thread as bullying, then you should also describe a many-page MN thread decrying JCJ as bullying. And that's not "spurious".

(And you can "see me" all you like. I don't think I've ever personally interacted with JCJ, and I am not on twitter very much, but I can spot a "consorting with witches" argument a mile off, regardless.)

And the other point is that PP seems to have been very effective at connecting with women who feel alienated from feminism, and that maybe some of her monitors might actually learn something if they stopped trawling through her social media history and watched her work.

"I have been very tired for a good long while now, and was planning on taking most of the summer off to try and recharge."

We're all tired. I could do with a whole summer off too. Don't have that luxury though.

I read all of that as I was looking for a significant point. No Matt Walsh isn't a friend to women. Yes women need a political party that puts women's needs first.

Are you doing any of that right now? Because, as I understood it, OP was talking about the state of play as of the time she put that post up, and she was referring to those of us going back and forth on Mumsnet, not the entire GC movement.

But so what? I don't have the luxuries - financial, physical, emotional, etc etc - of many of the other women I encounter in the GC movements, but that's not a reason for me to tear them down. We all don't have to be the same, or have the same resources to bring to the table, to appreciate each others' work, even when that work has a different focus to the work we choose.

I feel I am in the somewhat ridiculous position of "defending" JCJ, when I'd struggle to pick her out of a lineup. But what I am really depending is the notion that, if the thing that this thread is ostensibly about - the principle of not trying to bring down other women who work in a different way, or with a different focus - then just trashing one woman in a tit-for-tat because of what she said about another woman (maybe) won't get us anywhere.

There's lots of women I admire on this thread! There's even some of you I might be arguing with who I know IRL, and just don't know your current usernames, who knows. But I am trying to practice what I preach by critiquing a practice without questioning the morals or commitment or good faith of the people concerned in that practice.

I didn't say you introduced the topic of bullying, I said you made the claim as a defence mechanism, and in my view, it's not a claim that can be substantiated, given the quality of posts on this thread.

"Consort with the Witches" all you want, it's no skin off my nose. I think everyone should consort with whoever they want to, and that's the point of my criticism of WPUK and co. Women will consort with whomever they want, irrespective of whatever labels get thrown at them for "wrong groupthink".

If anyone is reading that JCJ article as just a dig at PP, I would seriously recommend doing some research into the US religious right (also the European nationalist groups, come to think of it). They are playing an extremely successful, extremely well-funded long game of undermining all the minority rights gained during the 1960/70s.

There was an excellent article in the New Yorker yesterday. I'll link to it, although it may be paywalled, about the criminalisation of pregnancy by Jis Tolantino 'We're not going back to the time before Roe. We're going somewhere else'.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/07/04/we-are-not-going-back-to-the-time-before-roe-we-are-going-somewhere-worse

'We're not going back to the time before Roe. We're going somewhere else'.

Yup. That's what's going to happen. Women and girls (the XX type) having to piss on a stick at state borders.

Women will consort with whomever they want, irrespective of whatever labels get thrown at them for "wrong groupthink".

Er, yes, this is exactly my point, @HatefulHaberdashery

Where has someone said JCJ is awful?

The comments I’ve seen about her on this thread have been that:

• she is Never Concise;


• she and WPUK should stop drawing attention to these disagreements with KJK.

Other than that it’s been a general discussion about strategic/ tactical approaches, different group’s/individual’s goals and purpose in campaigning, and the range of different views about feminism/ women’s rights held by women generally.

Just reading the New Yorker article "In advance of the U.S. bans, Gomperts has been promoting advance prescription: sympathetic doctors might prescribe abortion pills for any menstruating person, removing some of the fears—and, possibly, the traceability—that would come with attempting to get the pills after pregnancy."

And this is partly why America is in the shithole it currently is, and has nothing to do with Posie Parker.

Also, as an aside, why are we being co-opted into American culture wars, when in the UK, Abortion Rights are settled rights?

@LoobiJee Thank you!

My point exactly.

Of course PP has had no influence on US politics. All the influencing from the religious right is going one way only, whatever 'alliances' people might think that they're building.

Abortion rights are not settled in the UK. They 1967 Act created loop holes so that women could access legal abortion (in most but not all circumstances) without being charged under the Offences of the Person Act as had happened previously, but there's no guarantee that that won't come under attack.

We've all seen how steathily, quickly and effectively gender ideology has captured politics and policies at the most influential level. We're already up to our necks in US culture wars, I'm afraid.

Thanks. I dislike inaccuracy, so the gross misrepresentation of the thread prompted me to go back and re-read it from the beginning.

In the four pages (so, roughly 100 posts) before Archery joined the thread (ten minutes after the “we see you” post implying that JCJ’s twitter thread was due to jealousy of KJK), there had been 17 posts directly about the JCJ’s twitter thread, rough breakdown:

• JCJ’s thread is too long / snobby+too long = six posts
• In agreement with / neutral explanation of / constructive engagement with JCJ’s thread = five or six posts.
• Keep it private = three posts.

The remaining 83 posts in those four pages (and indeed since) have been primarily focused on WPUK or discussions about feminism.

And, yes, I am that pedantic! 😅 And that bored.

On a point of accuracy (haha), Archery’s post was no 17.

Whatever you choose to call them, be it "loopholes", or a settled right, if a woman wanted to have an abortion within 24 weeks within the UK today, she'd be able to get it. If her life was at risk, due to the baby within her, she'd get her D &C. I know this from personal and recent experience.

Nothing in this life is guaranteed, except death and taxes, but given the UK Government earlier this year passed legislation enabling women and girls to take both pills for early medical abortion (EMA) up to 10 weeks (9 weeks and 6 days) gestation in their own homes, following a telephone or e-consultation with a clinician, without the need to first attend a hospital or clinic, I don't think we are in any danger of losing our reproductive rights. Scaremongering unnecessary.

If we're "already involved in the US Culture Wars", then arguably it's the American Left that has an outsized influence on UK Life, given the amount of media & institutional attention devoted to issues like BLM, Critical Race Theory, etc, as opposed to any Right Wing Religious Nutjobs.

Haha, I like you bored!

Very helpful. Thanks!

Sonia Sodha is, as always, excellent at examining what parallels if any can be drawn

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/26/women-must-be-allowed-to-defend-abortion-as-a-sex-based-right