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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA on tribunal panel for school gender identity cass

85 replies

ARoombaOfOnesOwn · 20/06/2022 11:44

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10930909/Trans-rights-activist-judge-case-teaching-assistant-sacked-gender-identity-lessons.html

The Mail is referring to them - Edward Lord - as a trans rights activist. Lawyers for the teacher involved in the case would like them removed. They will be well-known to MNers.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WalkerWalking · 20/06/2022 18:53

If the tables were turned, I would want an openly GC voice in the room.

ColdTowel · 20/06/2022 19:16

FannyCann · 20/06/2022 18:34

@ColdTowel
I got the information from the SexMatters link up thread. Maybe he is no longer a trustee?

Thanks. Just over a year ago so yes, maybe he is no longer there. I'll have a dig....

donquixotedelamancha · 21/06/2022 09:42

But he’s not ever campaigned against the Christian religion? That’s the teachers case is it not? That teaching you can change gender is against her Christian religious beliefs?

I don't know the details of her argument (and I don't know enough of her situation to speculate about the strength of her case) but he's certainly campaigned and acted against all religions right to single sex spaces. I know there was quite a lot of push back from the local Jewish community. You are right that his main focus is opposition to women's rights but these things intersect.

You seem determined to say he shouldn't recuse himself- to me it seems the absolutely prototypical case for recusal and it feels like you are splitting hairs when the reasons for the conflict of interest are explained.

achillestoes · 21/06/2022 09:45

I just don’t get why he wouldn’t recuse himself. If he’s completely impartial and unbiased against the complainant, why does he care? There are other cases.

dolorsit · 21/06/2022 10:07

Yes, it's important to note that recusal is not a judgment on a person's ability to be non-biased, it is about maintaining the appearance of non-bias.

achillestoes · 21/06/2022 10:09

And all you do by insisting that you are the right person to advise on a particular case is reveal your bias.

Manderleyagain · 21/06/2022 10:20

NOTE the C of E is intervening. The plot thickens.
Presumably there's no indication of what they are intervening to say?
I am really interested to know what's going on here.
They have gone wokester on the gender identity stuff so I wouldn't put it past them to be intervening to say that it's not a Christian belief to think people can't change sex. Unless they are going to say there's a range of Christian opinion on that (which would be true).

But they hold the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman and don't perform same sex marriages. (To be fair they would need an act if parliament to change that). I don't think they will change on that because to do so would risk the African church's membership of the angican communion. So they wont want people to be sacked for stating that belief for example.

Cheekymaw · 21/06/2022 10:23

@Artichokeleaves

.... with that man's record, I would be very interested in an explanation of why he is an appropriate person to be involved in a case regarding a child

This ^
Why is this man allowed near a case involving a child or any vulnerable person (NHS etc) . Are Eunuchs normal now?

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 21/06/2022 10:39

Artichokeleaves · 20/06/2022 16:44

I make no comment at all on whether the woman in question is right or wrong or whether her dismissal was right or wrong; I have no knowing of the evidence of the case.

But yes, Lord has on multiple occasions actively campaigned for a very partisan political position that is against the rights and equality of women as a sex class, and particularly against their rights to express beliefs in reality, biology and their own sex based words and needs, or simply to express anything at all that is not exactly in keeping with and compliant with his personal and quite extreme TQ+ views. It's as about as inappropriate as asking Posie Parker to take a leading role in deciding a TQ+ access to women's spaces case, or Boris Johnson to lead an ethics committee. It's just plain unhelpful.

He is absolutely not impartial or appropriate to be participating in this, and I would think if the tribunal finds against her she will have legal recourse to overturn the ruling on his background alone.

Exactly this. As an active campaigner against this woman’s position, there’s no way he can pretend to be impartial.

Manderleyagain · 21/06/2022 10:45

Hmm she was criticising her son's church of england primary school. She said in March:

"I am disappointed that the Church of England has failed to come out and support me and instead appear to be endorsing gender confusion in their primary schools. I am encouraged that the tribunal will hear my appeal and pray for justice this week.”

I am a it confused because it looks like the appeal was heard in March. What was heard then as what's still to come if he is recused?

Discovereads · 21/06/2022 15:41

Edwards Lords participation in activist events/protests regarding womens spaces has absolutely nothing to do with this case.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f86f3e3e90e07415b7c9de5/Mrs_K_Higgs_V_Farmor_s_School_-1401264.2019-_Judgment.pdf

From the employment tribunals decision

Key Facts:
Mrs Higgs was employed by the School from 2012. At the time of the events giving rise to these claims, she was a pastoral administrator and work experience manager. In the first of those roles she was responsible for overseeing students who had been removed from a class for being disruptive.

On 26 October 2018, Mr Evans was sent an email from someone outside the School making a complaint about Mrs Higgs. Mrs Higgs had made a posting on Facebook and the complainant asserted that she had demonstrated homophobic and prejudiced views against the LGBT community. The relevant post is essentially a reposting of a piece written by someone other than Mrs Higgs to which she had added “Please read this! They are brainwashing our children!” and an exhortation to sign a petition. The post relates to the teaching in schools of same sex relationships, same sex marriage and gender being “a matter of choice”.

Mr Evans replied to the complainant on 29 October to thank her for her report and telling her it would be helpful “if you have access to any similarly offensive posts” also made by Mrs Higgs if she forwarded screenshots. As a result, Mr Evans was sent another example of Mrs Higgs reposting articles again written by a third party. The article relates to gender fluidity, describing it as a “perverted vision” and the complainant expresses the view that Mrs Higgs “seems to find...obnoxious” a category of person that would include several children at the School. This would appear to be a reference to LBGT pupils.

Religion or belief are protected characteristics and Mrs Higgs contended that she had been directly discriminated against and harassed by reason of her religion or belief.

Mrs Higgs is a Christian but it was not her case that she had been directly discriminated against or harassed for her Christianity per se (and clearly she had not been).

Rather, she contended that the following beliefs that she held had resulted in her mistreatment.
(a) Lack of belief in “gender fluidity”.
(b) Lack of belief that someone could change their biological sex/gender.
(c) Belief in marriage as a divinely instituted life-long union between one man and one woman.
(d) Lack of belief in “same sex marriage”. Whilst she recognises the legalisation of same sex “marriage”, she beliefs that this is contrary to Biblical teaching.
(e) Opposition to sex and/or relationship education for primary school children.
(f) A belief that she should “witness” to the world, that is when unbiblical ideas/ideologies are promoted, she should publicly witness to Biblical truth.
(g) A belief in the literal truth of the Bible, and in particular Genesis 1v 27: “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them”.

It was conceded by the School that items (c) – (e) in paragraph 30 above did amount to religious or philosophical beliefs falling within s10 of the Act. Items (f) and (g) did not really concern us but it was contended that items (a) and (b) did not so qualify.

In short, we concluded that the beliefs in question did satisfy the final test in Grainger and therefore that Mrs Higgs’ beliefs in relation to gender fluidity attracted the protection of the Equality Act.

Section 212(1) of the Equality Act provides, in effect, that harassment and direct discrimination are mutually exclusive. We therefore address them separately and begin by considering direct discrimination.

We begin by addressing the question of whether the School had any right to take action in relation to matters that Mrs Higgs might have regarded as private.

It is correct that what she put on her Facebook page would only be visible to her “Facebook friends”. However, she told us there were over 100 such people, and they included parents of children at the school where she worked.

There was nothing to prevent anyone taking screenshots of Mrs Higgs’ postings and circulating them more widely, as Mrs Higgs accepted. The fact is that anyone posting on such a platform as Facebook effectively loses control of their posts, at least when a large number of people can access them. In all the circumstances, we did not consider she had any real expectation of “privacy” in relation to matters that she had chosen to publish in this way. The School was fully entitled to take action in relation to the posts.

Addressing then the claim of direct discrimination, in order for her claim to succeed we would have to be satisfied that her treatment (ie the steps within the process itself) was because of her beliefs. We had to determine the rationale for that treatment.

The origin of the entire proceedings was the email of complaint dated 26 October 2018 which describes the views posted on Facebook as homophobic and prejudiced against the LBGT community. The complainant had – reasonably - inferred that the views expressed in the posts reflected the views of Mrs Higgs herself and concluded that those posts exhibited animus against the LGBT community, and trans people in particular.

The thrust of the subsequent investigation is reflected in the allegations made against Mrs Higgs that resulted in her dismissal. They were
“1 That you have contravened section 6.2 of the Conduct Policy (copy attached), in particular
a. Bullet point 6: any illegal discrimination
b. Bullet point 13: serious inappropriate use of social media eg
Facebook or other online comments that could bring the
school into disrepute
2 That you have contravened section 5.1 of the Conduct Policy, in
particular:
a. Bullet point 6: breaches code of conduct applicable to or
adopted by the school
3 That you have contravened section 2.1 of the schools (sic) Code of
Conduct (copy attached) relating to communications on your Facebook account that could be interpreted as illegal discrimination.
4 That you have contravened section 8.4 of the school’s Code of Conduct relating to communications on social media sites, having made comments on your Facebook account that could damage the reputation of the school.”

By way of explanation of those matters, section 6.2 of the Conduct Policy set out examples of gross misconduct, and allegation 1 against Mrs Higgs identified two that the School contended might apply to what she had done. As to allegation 2, section 5.1 gives examples of misconduct and in the dismissal letter the School identified two items with the Code of Conduct that Mrs Higgs had fallen foul of, essentially amounting to acting in a way that might bring the School into disrepute and potentially demeaning or humiliating pupils. Allegation 3 was not found proven against Mrs Higgs. In relation to allegation 4, section 8.4 of the Code of Conduct provided that communications on social media should not be inappropriate and should not bring the School into disrepute. The School eventually took the view that allegation 4 was subsumed within number 2.

The letter of dismissal makes a number of references to the email of complaint, pointing out that the complainant took offence and described the posts as homophobic and prejudiced against the LGBT community. The letter also talks of the language in the posts being inflammatory and quite extreme.

In particular, the second post states, amongst other things “The LGBT crowd with the assistance of the progressive School systems are destroying the minds of normal children by promoting mental illness” and “the far-left have hijacked the learning environment and they insist on cramming their perverted vision of gender fluidity down the throats of unsuspecting school children who are a government mandated captive audience”. The post in question is specifically about the use of books in schools in America which, according to the post, promote the concept of gender fluidity.

The language is florid and provocative, and is no doubt intended to be. However, the School considered that the consequence was that a reader (such as the complainant) might conclude that someone who associated herself with such a post (as Mrs Higgs had done) not only felt strongly that gender fluidity should not be taught in schools but was also was hostile towards the LBGT community, and trans people in particular.

Although not stated as clearly or simply as this, the act of which we concluded Mrs Higgs was accused and eventually found guilty was posting items on Facebook that might reasonably lead people who read her posts to conclude that she was homophobic and transphobic. That behaviour, the School felt, had the potential for a negative impact in relation to various groups of people, namely pupils, parents, staff and the wider community. It was a suspicion that she had done so that brought about the entire process.

We were also conscious that Mrs Higgs made it clear that she had no intention of desisting from making any further such posts in the future. The suggestion that she might was not, as Mr Stroilov suggested, an invitation to her to renounce her beliefs. Mr Conlan told us that had those beliefs been simply stated on her Facebook page in the form which they appear in paragraph 30 above, no further action could or would have been taken against her. We accepted his evidence to that effect.

We concluded that not only the dismissal but the entire proceedings taken against Mrs Higgs were motivated by a concern on the part of the School that, by reason of her posts, she would be perceived as holding unacceptable views in relation to gay and trans people – views which in fact she vehemently denied that she did hold.

In short, that action was not on the ground of the beliefs but rather for a completely different reason, namely that as a result of her actions she might reasonably be perceived as holding beliefs that would not qualify for protection within the Equality Act (and, as we say, beliefs that she denied having).

We concluded that there was not. Our view was that her treatment was not because of the relevant beliefs and accordingly her claim of direct discrimination failed.

(her harrassment claim fails as well).

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 21/06/2022 15:47

Edwards Lords participation in activist events/protests regarding womens spaces has absolutely nothing to do with this case.

First sentence has absolutely nothing to do with the rest of the post (which was interesting and informative, so thanks for linking to it.)

Distractable · 22/06/2022 10:51

Tribunal Tweets are at this case today. V interesting to note that the lay members volunteered themselves to hear this case. 👀
twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1539543114884464641?t=LgRQiKA3BtxKgNRQF9OVQA&s=19

Distractable · 22/06/2022 11:13

The opening remarks all appear to be about the suitability of Mx (how do you pronounce that out loud?!) Edward Lord to hear this case...

Discovereads · 22/06/2022 11:19

Distractable · 22/06/2022 10:51

Tribunal Tweets are at this case today. V interesting to note that the lay members volunteered themselves to hear this case. 👀
twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1539543114884464641?t=LgRQiKA3BtxKgNRQF9OVQA&s=19

Why is it interesting? All lay members are unpaid volunteers. So technically they always “volunteer” for all the cases they advise on.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2022 11:21

There is absolutely no way a trans activist should be allowed to judge this case, it's a conflict of interests. Lord's belief in gender identity ideology is as great as that of the claimant's in god.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 22/06/2022 11:23

Why is it interesting? All lay members are unpaid volunteers. So technically they always “volunteer” for all the cases they advise on.

You could have tried reading the link which explains it. The usual system is that the next member in the queue is allocated the case. This time there was a fuckup so the case was allocated to the first two volunteers who responded they were interested in this specific case.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2022 11:25

Trans activists I have heard see this case as very significant.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/06/2022 11:26

It was discussed on one of the Allison Bailey case threads after a pro TRA poster brought it up.

Discovereads · 22/06/2022 11:29

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 22/06/2022 11:23

Why is it interesting? All lay members are unpaid volunteers. So technically they always “volunteer” for all the cases they advise on.

You could have tried reading the link which explains it. The usual system is that the next member in the queue is allocated the case. This time there was a fuckup so the case was allocated to the first two volunteers who responded they were interested in this specific case.

Oh, I read the link. Yes they had to get two lay members at short notice due to an oversight where the case was listed as only needing 1 judge. But that doesn’t change that fact that all lay members are always volunteers whether the work is allocated by using a list or by doing a mass email and giving the case to whoever responds first.

NecessaryScene · 22/06/2022 11:29

Unsurprisingly, the claimant has submitted a recusal application for Lord, and they're now considering that today:

twitter.com/anyabike/status/1539529337082368000

Tribunal tweets is covering it. Intro thread:
twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1539523256092352512

Coverage thread:
twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1539543114884464641

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 22/06/2022 11:30

Is there any conceivable good argument for keeping him on the panel?

If the judge keeps him on that would be quite worrying.

Discovereads · 22/06/2022 11:33

Also, the responses were not based on “interest in this specific case” but on date of the case and availability

”so i gave an order to ask all of the panel if they were available - email sent out with date and case. Within an hour 2 lay members said they were available 1-2
March. In the end it didn't go ahead because of ill health of counsel. I said it did not have to be the same panel, but the administration kept it with the same panel as there was some reading-in & they were available.“

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 22/06/2022 11:36

Also, the responses were not based on “interest in this specific case” but on date of the case and availability.

do you think you've made a point here? The people who responded within an hour knew what case they were volunteering for, which is not the normal arrangement. Why even bother to argue about this when it's right there in black and white? Weird.

Distractable · 22/06/2022 12:12

They are finished now. I almost think that Edward Lord's refusal to recuse themself should be a reason for Mx Lord to be recused.