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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Emily Bazelon NYT article

34 replies

mirax · 16/06/2022 09:20

This article came out yesterday and it is creeping slowly into GC sanity. Seems that the writer is facing an onslaught on Twitter. The top readers' comments are very clearly GC too.

archive.ph/cvRw4

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mirax · 16/06/2022 09:21

Top voted reader's comment :
I attended an art exposition at the high school my kids attend, and I
was struck by the number of girls in that department (it is
overwhelmingly female) who have adopted gender neutral pseudonyms—kids
whose last names I recognize from their elementary-school days. Then
there are the friends and acquaintances of my kids, all female, who’ve
adopted male names and pronouns (or who’ve vacillated between he/him and
they/them or the head-scratching he/them). Something is going on with
teenage girls, and it’s not because so many of them were closeted
transgender.

I very rarely agree with conservatives, but in this area, I do. My 16
year old cannot have spinal surgery to correct a severe curvature —
altering her body for pain relief — without my consent, and yet trans
activists are agitating for adolescents to be allowed to permanently
alter their bodies and adopt a lifelong, medicalized existence. 18 is
even too young to be permitted to take cross-sex hormones when the brain
doesn’t fully develop until 25.

I was once quite sympathetic to the trans community. I don’t really care
how anyone dresses or what name they call themselves. But the inability
of many trans activists to have reasoned discussion about legitimate
issues, their campaigns of rage against anyone brings up such concerns,
and their irrational rejection of the reality of biological sex has lost
them many allies, including this one.

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mirax · 16/06/2022 09:22

Top NYT pick :

Full disclosure: I am a transgender woman who works in healthcare and
transitioned as a young adult. I have been following “the battle of
gender therapy” for youth/adolescents for many years now. I know
virtually every one of the organizations and/or individuals in this
article and have been in communication with at least several of them
over the years.

First, I want to point out this is the best and most nuanced article I
have ever read on this incredibly complex and hot-button topic. All of
the usual suspects from both sides of the “debate” appear to be
mentioned, which is great for achieving balance.

From my own perspective as I have watched this all play out over the
years, it is clear to me that we need to achieve a nuanced evidence
based middle ground between the extremes of “ban gender care for
everyone under 25” to “immediate gender affirmation and fast track to
medicalization of young people.” My inclination is that more robust
evidence is needed at this time, and in the interim we should proceed
conservatively out an abundance of caution for these still developing
youth. To me, that looks like: no surgery under the age of 18,
extensive/prolonged mental health evalualations before interventions,
and puberty blockers should be used in only severe cases in folks with
prolonged history of gender dysphoria.

Transition should be seen as a last resort to alleviate gender
dysphoria. For all others, extreme caution should be taken before
embarking on this path.

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aseriesofstillimages · 16/06/2022 09:39

That’s a really interesting and balanced article, thank you for sharing it

mirax · 16/06/2022 09:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

timeisnotaline · 16/06/2022 10:22

This is fabulous. Well done her.

mirax · 16/06/2022 10:57

Dont even know what rules I broke above. I basically wrote that I was glad to see some sanity emerge in the US and it saved many thousands of young people from irreversible harm. Is that ok moderator?

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picklemewalnuts · 16/06/2022 11:04

Did you use the word cunt (which is allowed), but substituting the n for an l? 'Cos that's not allowed. You're only allowed to say 'cunt', not 'cu*t'.

mirax · 16/06/2022 11:09

No, I basically expressed what I wrote but I did use the word 'mu+ilate' in relation to the young people.

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Hagiography · 16/06/2022 11:21

The 'm' word often attracts deletions.

zafferana · 16/06/2022 11:27

I thought hell would freeze over before the NYT published anything remotely GC. I cancelled my subscription as a result of their advert featuring a photo of a woman supposedly 'imagining Harry Potter without its creator'. NYC is one of the most woke places on the planet these days, so I suppose that kind of shit went down well there, but I'm truly surprised to see this article. I shall now read it at leisure! Thanks for the link.

FunnyTalks · 16/06/2022 11:35

Two good comments.

Re the comment from the transwoman, I am aware through twitter and personal life that many trans people share this sense of caution around trans youth. Why is it they are so rarely platformed by the media? Why does the Guardian in particular only ever platform trans people with really extreme, misogynist views?

It is so damaging - to left wing politics, to women, to non conforming children and to trans people and trans acceptance.

zafferana · 16/06/2022 11:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NecessaryScene · 16/06/2022 11:52

I'm flabbergasted by the top comments too - what is happening? It's like intelligent people are finally using their critical thinking and realising that kids and young adults are being harmed. Could this really be? Are people finally seeing the emperor's new clothes for what they are?

Abigail Shrier called out part of the dynamic on Twitter.

Long ago, the NYT was in the news business. Today, it's in the business of telling Liberals what they're allowed to talk about.

Years after the dangers of pediatric gender medicine became undeniable - it has decided Liberals may talk about them.

DeaconBoo · 16/06/2022 11:56

It's a long read, but an essential one, about WPATH's new draft Standards of Care (so, things like age limits on surgery, hormones etc among many other things) and the controversy around them. A few rushed thoughts:

"And just like that, after four years of painstaking work, Leibowitz, de Vries and the rest of their group were being called out as traitors by peers and the community they sought to care for. “We understood the enormity of the need for these standards from the beginning,” Leibowitz told me. “I’m not sure we recognized the enormity of the controversy. It’s a result of the fact that our world, the world of gender care, has exploded.”"

I can't decide whether it's sweet or alarming that they were so naive/sheltered from how the discourse has been in the past few years. Are they not on Twitter? (I'd hope they don't use it to inform their studies, obviously!) Of course setting any kind of age limits or even fuzzy requirements ("Identify as the gender for some time" - I paraphrase) will earn you 'fury from providers and activists within the transgender world.' The fact that you've been working in this field for years is irrelevant to the TRAs.

Based on this research, in some cases Zucker advised parents to box up the dolls or princess dresses, so a child who was being raised as a boy (a majority then) wouldn’t have those things to play with.

It's really hard to know what 'a child who was being raised as a boy' means. I assume male, but 'raising as' suggests gender not sex? I wish language wasn't so stupidly constrained. In fact the author hardly uses the words 'male' or 'female' unless describing e.g. 'male puberty'.

The Amsterdam clinic shifted, too. Some Dutch families socially transitioned kids on their own, which de Vries and her colleagues accepted; they began counseling other families about social transition too. Though the Amsterdam researchers’ previous results, like Zucker’s, showed that most kids who came to the clinic in elementary school later realigned with the genders of their birth, and often came out as gay, lesbian or bisexual, de Vries and her colleagues now see those findings as a product of their time, when the children whom parents brought to the clinic included many boys with an interest in wearing feminine clothing and playing with dolls that didn’t turn out to be gender dysphoria. Today many Dutch parents are more accepting of this behavior, and the Amsterdam clinicians think that as a result, most of the children who come to the clinic are asserting a strong and persistent gender preference. It’s more likely that such children will stay the course of being transgender, research shows

This is a good thing, I think? And look, it's a result of going against the notion that 'playing with dolls means you're a girl', that is so commonly brought up by parents of transgender kids (this was a big issue with the Mermaids' woman's kid). I.e. - being more critical of gendered roles. I hope this approach is encouraged.

“I know there are worries that effeminate males can be assumed to be female or masculine girls can be assumed to be male,” says Amy Tishelman, the lead author of the SOC8 chapter on children and a child psychologist who is the former director of clinical research at the gender clinic at Boston Children’s Hospital. “That’s not what we’re advocating. Support for trans people should not be a way of limiting what a girl or a boy or a woman or a man or a person can be.”

I hope they expand on this and make it extremely clear that femininity and masculinity have nothing to do with sex or gender. Currently, the NHS 'gender dysphoria' criteria rely heavily on stereotypes.

St. Amand thinks the purpose of an assessment is not to determine the basis of a kid’s gender identity. “That just reeks of some old kind of conversion-therapy-type things,” he told me over the phone in April. “I think what we’ve seen historically in trans care is an overfocus on assessing identity.” He continued: “People are who they say they are, and they may develop and change, and all are normal and OK. So I am less concerned with certainty around identity, and more concerned with hearing the person’s embodiment goals. Do you want to have a deep voice? Do you want to have breasts? You know, what do you want for your body?”

Interesting that this person wants to get away from 'identity' and reduce people to concentrate on body parts and physical characteristics. This would seem to be a logical progression from 'there's no such thing as a male or female body' that Stonewall etc assert.

Interesting descriptions of internalised misogyny driving trans boy identities.

Jack Turban is included in the article, whom I mainly know from this medium.com/@JLCederblom/the-lukewarm-perjury-of-jack-turban-a85903109051

Lots more to think on but it's a good summary.

DeaconBoo · 16/06/2022 11:58

FunnyTalks · 16/06/2022 11:35

Two good comments.

Re the comment from the transwoman, I am aware through twitter and personal life that many trans people share this sense of caution around trans youth. Why is it they are so rarely platformed by the media? Why does the Guardian in particular only ever platform trans people with really extreme, misogynist views?

It is so damaging - to left wing politics, to women, to non conforming children and to trans people and trans acceptance.

Exactly, and in the article, there is this:

"...I talked to F.G., the first patient to take puberty suppressants for gender affirmation 35 years ago, when he was 13... He told me that when he was a child, he wanted simply to be a boy. But of course that was impossible. Taking medication to stop puberty, he said, saved his life. He waited until he was 18 for hormone treatment. It would be unusual now to have such a prolonged stint on puberty suppressants. F.G. says he never wanted to have children, though he’s not sure if that’s because he didn’t know if he could....
F.G. has watched the rise in numbers of transgender young people with a mix of joy and trepidation. He thinks kids who want the medical treatment he received should go through a significant assessment process. “It makes me sound a bit of a hypocrite, because I needed that to be who I am,” he said. And yet the time on the suppressants, to test the strength of his own desires, was essential to his peace of mind. “I really, really thought about it,” he said, “and I’ve never been so sure of anything in my whole entire life.”

NecessaryScene · 16/06/2022 12:01

Jack Turban is one of the worst offenders w.r.t. medical misinformation in the US. Jesse Singal's recent article was prompted by Turban's appearance on some science podcast, insisting that puberty blockers and hormones were "not controversial at all".

And as Jesse says:

I've reached out to Turban repeatedly and never heard back. I'm not aware of him ever responding to requests for comment from those w/critical questions a/b his work. Softball interviews, always.

zafferana · 16/06/2022 12:19

Hagiography · 16/06/2022 11:21

The 'm' word often attracts deletions.

It sure does! I used it and bam! Deleted. I guess chopping off healthy body parts is seen as something else on MN ...

Torunette · 16/06/2022 12:46

"People are who they say they are, and they may develop and change, and all are normal and OK. So I am less concerned with certainty around identity, and more concerned with hearing the person’s embodiment goals. Do you want to have a deep voice? Do you want to have breasts? You know, what do you want for your body?”

This is like some bizarre Mr Potato Head approach to actual human beings. It's medical consumerism writ large. I can't quite believe I've just read it.

And the one thing that never gets talked about is the constant assumption that all this is viable long term. What the hell happens if there's a some sort of crisis and artificial hormones are no longer be available for public consumption for a short to long term period? What happens about growing antibiotic resistance?

It's all so unstable and short-termist. We already know that there are transpeople who have struggled to access post-surgical care, and we also know that some transmen have discovered they need hysterectomies after taking testosterone for over five years. What if someone just can't get these procedures done at that point? What happens if you can't have remedial surgery because you develop a heart condition or a blood pressure problem?

I am just flabbergasted by all this. I really am.

DeaconBoo · 16/06/2022 12:49

And not forgetting, these are the same people that say women can have penises. So why the massive focus on changing kids' bodies?

"Mr Potato Head" approach is a good description!

mirax · 16/06/2022 13:00

Torunette · 16/06/2022 12:46

"People are who they say they are, and they may develop and change, and all are normal and OK. So I am less concerned with certainty around identity, and more concerned with hearing the person’s embodiment goals. Do you want to have a deep voice? Do you want to have breasts? You know, what do you want for your body?”

This is like some bizarre Mr Potato Head approach to actual human beings. It's medical consumerism writ large. I can't quite believe I've just read it.

And the one thing that never gets talked about is the constant assumption that all this is viable long term. What the hell happens if there's a some sort of crisis and artificial hormones are no longer be available for public consumption for a short to long term period? What happens about growing antibiotic resistance?

It's all so unstable and short-termist. We already know that there are transpeople who have struggled to access post-surgical care, and we also know that some transmen have discovered they need hysterectomies after taking testosterone for over five years. What if someone just can't get these procedures done at that point? What happens if you can't have remedial surgery because you develop a heart condition or a blood pressure problem?

I am just flabbergasted by all this. I really am.

That jumped out at me too. We are who we are. I am 5 foot nothing. I'd like to taller, for my nose to be smaller and so on. Every single human is gonna have 'embodiment' goals that are not fulfilled and SHOULD not be fulfilled because we will become a plasticky, monstrous society if given this option.

You are spot on about the long term implications of massive cross-sex hormone intake and surgery, including cancers.

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Torunette · 16/06/2022 13:53

One discussion that I read elsewhere made the astute observation that when you actually look at recent images of "successful" surgical interventions in young transmen, it was notable that surgery was mooted as the solution to defeminising the body, and there was no evidence that anyone had suggested to these young people that, say, exercise or resistance training, coupled with a more healthy diet, might achieve some of those goals in a less interventionist, less expensive and more productive way -- which was precisely the reverse of the advice often given to young men who worried about not looking masculine enough.

For transmen and boys who want to look masculine, it's all about the scalpel and the pills. For young males who worry about not looking masculine enough, it's "get down to the gym, lift heavy and drink protein shakes."

I think that says a lot, to be honest.

DeaconBoo · 16/06/2022 17:00

Interesting that the article on WPATH SOC8 makes no mention of 'eunuch' now being included.
www.wpath.org/soc8/chapters

MN thread and link to Telegraph article: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4569010-nhs-scotland-links-to-eunuch-archive

Glinner/ Gluck article: grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/top-trans-medical-association-collaborated?s=r

It's absolutely horrific. How is this being included in all the gender care stuff? It can't be by accident.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/06/2022 17:49

Thank you for posting this mirax. It makes fascinating reading. It's fascinating reading about the contortions of adults desperate to use children in this battle. It's also optimistic in that this genie is not going back into the bottle - but what awful casualties there are - with so many more coming down the line.

nepeta · 16/06/2022 23:01

I sampled the comments. Most of them are very clearly on the gender critical side. Several asked if the vast increase in teen girls wanting to transition out of being viewed as female might be partly driven by the current wave of misogyny (porn-based views about women's sexuality, supposed to result in women wanting to be slapped or choked in sex), the return of more rigid gender roles supported now not only by the right but also by the left, and perhaps also things such as the incel movement and its long tentacles among some young men and boys.

Then I read another NYT piece, this time an opinion piece about Bimbos being a good thing. It felt almost like an answer to those comments. I think I'd prefer to be a trans boy rather than a Bimbo who is proud of not being able to count and of not bothering to work etc.

mirax · 17/06/2022 09:23

nepeta · 16/06/2022 23:01

I sampled the comments. Most of them are very clearly on the gender critical side. Several asked if the vast increase in teen girls wanting to transition out of being viewed as female might be partly driven by the current wave of misogyny (porn-based views about women's sexuality, supposed to result in women wanting to be slapped or choked in sex), the return of more rigid gender roles supported now not only by the right but also by the left, and perhaps also things such as the incel movement and its long tentacles among some young men and boys.

Then I read another NYT piece, this time an opinion piece about Bimbos being a good thing. It felt almost like an answer to those comments. I think I'd prefer to be a trans boy rather than a Bimbo who is proud of not being able to count and of not bothering to work etc.

I found the comments even more interesting than the article - it was as if people were being given permission to breathe and air their true opinions. It's another chip in the wall. The wall is not going to crumble anytime soon - too many people have invested their reputations in this cult and there's plenty of money still to be made- but more and light is being allowed in, sunlight is the best disinfectant etc.

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