Link between autogynephilia & narcissism

[EmiliaFoxtrot]

I'm currently reading Helen Joyce's book 'Trans', which I highly recommend. I found this paragraph particularly interesting:

"Lawrence adds another piece to the puzzle of transactivist rage. She posits that autogynephilia's inwardly directed nature, and the frustrations attendant on requiring others to validate your cross-sex identity, mean that the condition co-occurs with narcissistic disorders more than would often happen by chance."

Another interesting point that Joyce makes: "Their anger results from the envy of women and resentment at not being accepted by women as one of them. They direct their ire at women because it is women that frustrate their desires. Men are largely irrelevant. This explains why such rage is mostly directed at women even though it is men who commit almost all anti-trans harassment and violence."

I think she's right on both points. Narcissism and projection are the cornerstones of identity politics, and never more so than in this instance.

This explains why such rage is mostly directed at women even though it is men who commit almost all anti-trans harassment and violence.

I’ve always wondered why this is. There’s a lot of misogyny within the trans rights movement, including allies who love to scold women.

They hate their mothers.

Grandiose narcissists, in love with themselves because it's the most important relationship they'll ever have.

People make the mistake that TRAs are trans (whether AGP or not).

The majority aren't, in a lot of cases you will find misogynists who have attached themselves to this cause as an excuse to be abusive to women.

You will also find a lot of gullible students (obsessed with being on the right side of history) and seek an outlet for their youthful and privileged rage, unfortunately it is women again who are on the receiving end of the abuse.

There's another thread trending on MN AIBU about red pill MGTOW, incels and all the other misogynist women haters. It's bloody everywhere in its various guises.

It's an interesting idea, but is there any evidence that it's true? I can think of examples but who knows if they are really reflective.

If it were true, it seems to me that a person who developed a paraphilia like AGP would likely be protected someone what from being sucked into certain behaviours and viewpoints by more reflectivness and self-awareness. So they would be much more likely to moderate, or even try and extinguish, the elements that would affect other people negativly. Whereas someone who was a narcissist would be much less likely to do so.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here sorry....surely people who have narcissistic tendencies can also develop AGP.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by 'reflective and self aware' in regards to a sexual fetish? Surely the appeal of many sexual fetishes is that they push boundaries.

@MangyInseam Well, as @Roseglen84 says part of the fetish is pushing boundaries and it's even suggested that the humiliation makes the sexual high more intense.

I just don't get how young women are falling for this shit. Misogyny is everywhere. Me too. The appalling conviction rates for sex crimes. The pornification of sex. The commodifcation of our wombs. Men in womens prisons. How they cant join the dots is beyond me. Identity politics only benefits males. It is just the next, slyer version of the same old shit. It has been the same since Eve got the blame for mankinds fall from grace.

It is getting worse not better, only now so called feminists are complicit. I will never understand it.

The trigger for development of a fetish is poorly understood and seems to happen quite young. It's not a type of sexual response tenns or boys are choosing in an adult kind of way. And at that age, they are likely to lack the experience, cognition, and self-knowledge to have the sense to question that sexual response to any great degree. Our culture, that tells them as long as sexual ideas remain in their heads they are ok, does not give them any help with this.

Some men do seem to be able to take a step back from this kind of thing and see where it is destructive to themselves or others, or to question things like sexual subcultures that seem unhealthy.

What I am suggesting is that someone with NPD is much less likely to be able to take that step back or see where their own thought patterns, a cultural narrative, or behaviours are negative, unhealthy, or damaging.

So while I do think the idea that the inner-focus of NPD could relate to or support an AGP type paraphilia is interesting and worth looking into, I don't think it's the only reason AGP might occur more frequently with NPD. It also could be that while some men with AGP manage to overcome it or keep it within bounds because they see it is problematic, men who also have NPD won't likely be motivated to try because tehy never see it as a problem.

I mean, yes, many people, even without fetishes, are tuned on by pushing boundaries, women as well as men. That does not mean they don't see that pushing boundaries has real dangers and dead ends attached to it.

The things we want or are attracted to don't have to determine what we think is right or what we do, than goodness.

The trigger for development of a fetish is poorly understood and seems to happen quite young

Not really.
Being male seems to be a very high defining factor.

One in five males will develop a paraphilia. Exhibitionism and voyeurism are the top two. (Let's try holding onto these women only spaces, hey).
AGP is in the top 10 most common paraphilias.

I don't believe having a paraphilia is down to childhood issues. I do think it's due to wanking too much to porn.

There have always been a fair few turkeys who voted for Christmas. Maybe they think it will save them from being eaten or maybe they are oblivious to what Christmas actually involves. For sure though I am coming up against women who are pushing gender identity and relentlessly, in every sphere. Some of them seem little better than playground bullies to be honest, mean girls, they have found a cause which feeds their hunger for power over others and simultaneously gives them a feeling of being righteously outraged at other women, could be women they are jealous of in some way. Maybe many of these female allies are on the narcissistic spectrum…

On the question of why so many women seem to be on board with handing over our rights, have a read of Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion. I saw it recommended here and it was quite an eye-opener.

In the last few days, I’ve seen several women argue along the following lines:

It’s bio-essentialist to define women and girls as having female bodies.

I’m past the menopause/had a hysterectomy/chose not to have kids, so my reproductive system is irrelevant to my identity.

Blurring or merging the definitions of “male” and “female” would help to dismantle gender stereotypes and the patriarchy.

Don’t these women realise that across the world, millions of women and girls are systemically abused and discriminated against because they are female?
And that every country should have equalities and human rights legislation that specifically prohibits this?

As we know, the control of women’s sexuality and reproductive potential isn’t incidental - it’s a core aim of patriarchies around the world.

"Being men" doesn't tell us anything about why some people develop them and some don't, and wanking and too much porn doesn't seem to fit with the research that exists. I didn't suggest "childhood issues" I suggested that they develop fairly early on, in the teen or pre-teen years. I suspect that an increase in the exposure of young boys to all kinds of sexualized images makes them more likely but some seem to develop from much more obscure incidents or things that. Possibly telling kids not to spend too much time masturbating might be helpful but I imagine it would be an uphill battle convincing the general population of that. Everything in post sexual revolution western culture encourages the things that make it more likely that weird sexual obsessions will occur and have a chance to establish.

I think some are. You see a lot of them in Dickens. Diffrent age, different good cause, same personality .

I don't believe having a paraphilia is down to childhood issues. I do think it's due to wanking too much to porn.

If teenage boys get exposed to sissy hypno porn then are likely to become AGPs because their young brains are much more susceptible than say, a man in his 50s.