Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Germans are tying themselves up in knots

40 replies

Onceinawhileuser · 15/06/2022 11:11

An employee has brought a legal case against manufacturer Audi alleging that his rights are being breached by their mangling of language in company documents and correspondence.
The Germans already include male and female a lot - eg "We are looking for a "mitarbeiter/in" "(male/female colleague). This is supposedly not inclusive of "all genders", so they are now making things more complicated. See this sentence from Audi, which is supposedly inclusive of trans people by its use of the underlining symbol _ :
„Derdie BSM-Expertin ist qualifizierter Fachexpertin“

OP posts:
Onceinawhileuser · 18/06/2022 12:47

So "third sex" = non-binary? Or just "anyone else at all"?

OP posts:
Maerchentante · 18/06/2022 12:59

Oh, it's been a lot more visible and vocal in the last few years, I'd say.

About two months ago, "Sendung mit der Maus"* did a follow up with a homeless man they had filmed a few years earlier when he was just about to move into a flat after many years on the streets. However, now he was a "she". A lot of "born in the wrong body" and "sex change" in that segment and not really, imho, suitable for their target audience.

To add to this, the Greens in the Bundestag have two transwomen amongst them. One of which is very vocal about "transphobia" and got upset that the ballot paper had male name, but never bothered to even file for "Personenstandsänderung" (maybe similar to GRC?).
The Greens also want to push through a self ID law, where people can go to the registrar's office and by act of speech can change their sex (I know, I know).
It would then be possible to change this again after a year. Mis-gendering would also be penalised under their proposed law change.
I have spoken to a few family members who were not aware of this at all.

The whole "gendering" in the use of language has made people more vocal as well. People who refuse to "gender" being called "Boomers" or perceived as right wing, old fashioned or as refusing to be inclusive. It's the German version of "just be kind".

*Sendung mit der Maus is a 30 minute TV programme for children 3+, they usually do an "explainer" clip like how is a fire extinguisher made or how do the stripes get into the tooth paste, it also has a little story like Charlie and Lola or similar, wrapping it up with either Shaun the Sheep or a story by a "bear" that used to be a sea farer and likes to spin sailor's yarn. In between the main segments they've got little clips of an organge mouse and a blue elephant.
It's been on TV for over 50 years and is usually quite educational. I watched it as a child and now watch it with my sister and her kids when I'm over there.

Malahaha · 18/06/2022 14:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Malahaha · 18/06/2022 16:22

I had a message deleted and I have no idea what I said wrong! All I did was mention an English-speaking German friend whom I last saw in 2018 or 2019 and she had no idea what was going on, so I had to inform her by sending links etc. That was basically it.
What in that goes against the guidelines? I'm pretty sure I did not use a forbidden word.

BertieBotts · 20/07/2022 09:31

Sorry this is so old but I came across it and can answer the third sex question. In German law it is possible to register a baby as third sex/neutral on their birth certificate if they have a DSD condition meaning that their sex is ambiguous. This means that in Germany, sex is no longer assigned to those with DSD conditions. If the sex is observable, it will be recorded. If it is not, then there is an option for it to be recorded as such rather than just "pick one".

It is not the same as non binary/queer etc.

Crouton19 · 20/07/2022 11:22

BertieBotts · 20/07/2022 09:31

Sorry this is so old but I came across it and can answer the third sex question. In German law it is possible to register a baby as third sex/neutral on their birth certificate if they have a DSD condition meaning that their sex is ambiguous. This means that in Germany, sex is no longer assigned to those with DSD conditions. If the sex is observable, it will be recorded. If it is not, then there is an option for it to be recorded as such rather than just "pick one".

It is not the same as non binary/queer etc.

Thanks that is helpful. With improved testing, presumably this record could then be updated once the specific DSD condition (and therefore biological sex) was known? Or would the parents of a child with Eg CAIS have the option of recording the child as female on the basis they won’t develop masculine traits?

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 20/07/2022 12:38

Luckily in France a judge ruled that children need to get a proper understanding of their grammar so it has to be taught traditionally as altering anything stands to add unnecessary confusion.

Thank god.

Children over here are being taught gender nonsense at an age when they believe anything adults tell them. Made-up pronouns are just the tip of the iceberg. I've no idea how they're going to disentangle reality from what they've been told at school, as they grow up. It really is a betrayal by the adults we trust to educate them.

BertieBotts · 20/07/2022 13:45

I don't know any more than that, sorry. I just knew about the birth certificate because I remember it coming into law and it was an option on the form when we registered the children's births here. The hospital sends the information to the registry office, so presumably you can't just choose 3rd gender if you feel like it!

BertieBotts · 20/07/2022 13:48

DS3 actually has a DSD condition but he is male. It is a condition that only affects males.

MrGHardy · 20/07/2022 18:02

Oh God, but there is quite the backlash on this though, which is understandable. On TV, presenters have started used a pause. Mitarbeiter:innen, where the colon symbol is. It is absolutely horrendous to listen to but everyone just follows along because being "inclusive" is expected.

FreudayNight · 20/07/2022 20:14

JanesLittleGirl · 15/06/2022 18:44

Wouldn't it be easier if we all spoke Basque? It has 2 genders - animate and inanimate? Or Finnish which has no genders?

According to my Finnish boss some people are now making up pronouns. He finds it hilarious.

he also sent me a very earnest article written by a young NB where they talk how oppressive and non-validating Finnish is.

Maerchentante · 21/07/2022 12:18

MrGHardy · 20/07/2022 18:02

Oh God, but there is quite the backlash on this though, which is understandable. On TV, presenters have started used a pause. Mitarbeiter:innen, where the colon symbol is. It is absolutely horrendous to listen to but everyone just follows along because being "inclusive" is expected.

I heard one of those pro/con pieces on the radio and one reporter was very much "Be Kind, Be Inclusive", whereas the other stated that if people could not take the time to use Mitarbeiterinnen und Mitarbeiter (employees), it would be detrimental and show a certain lack of respect.
I just find it very weird when I hear it, maybe I'm not used to it.

Funny thing: Earlier this year I looked up a few things to do in Munich and came across "Sitzplätze innen*". Briefly wondered why Sitzplätze (seats) are now gendered before realising that they were referring to seats inside the restaurant as opposed to those outside.
German is my native language, so I don't what to know how a non-native speaker handles all that "inclusive language".

*innen means inside

Twindow · 21/07/2022 12:33

They're choosing not to learn from what has happened in the United States, Canada, etc. It's very depressing.

Igneococcus · 21/07/2022 20:17

I saw the ZDF use "Gästinnen and Gäste", which makes all cringe (acute case of Fremdschämen). Gäste is already neutral.

titchy · 21/07/2022 20:36

What do Icelanders (and others?) do with their surnames - does Bob Erikson become Bobbette 'Eriskdottir'?

New posts on this thread. Refresh page