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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pronouns in maths exams

315 replies

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow · 13/06/2022 20:19

I scribe for GCSEs. Today was aqa maths, calculator paper. Now maths textbooks and exams have long done diverse names in the examples, eg, Sarah and Rashid are making cakes...Dafydd is planting a garden, Safira is buying rope. You get the drift. This year though I’ve noticed that gender neutral has been introduced. So Kai is making a cake, they use 50 grams of sugar. One could say that making the questions genderless is ok, and maybe so if it was consistent. So there was they their, he him and she her. A few of my fellow sribers said that their candidates were confused by the wording of the questions (especially the they/theirs, the kids thought there were more than one person being talked about). I was talking about it with the maths teachers later and all of them said why can’t it be Student A, student B? And especially why cant the exam board be consistent?

OP posts:
RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 14/06/2022 09:54

DeaconBoo · 14/06/2022 09:48

I am well aware of language difficulties students might face and I am also aware that qualifications have competences that must be met.

But you've essentially called them liars in this thread. You are maintaining that there is zero possibility that anyone would be thrown by wording that doesn't make it clear what the question is asking for.

In your own example questions you included odd phrases that genuinely would have made me spend more time questioning what I was being asked or if the question had typos - yet you don't seem to accept these are problematic?

Because they went straight into ‘mumsnet FWR? 🤔 obviously anyone complaining is coming at it from a transphobic point of view’

instead of ‘in my (obviously) vast experience of education there may well be a group of children that may be adversely affected’

its quite hard to row back from that

Peregrina · 14/06/2022 09:55

But if this fictional Petra with the inheritance was really Peter who identified as a female, then the correct pronoun would be she anyway. Not they!

I am only half joking here.

NecessaryScene · 14/06/2022 09:56

yet you don't seem to accept these are problematic?

Of course not. We're in the presence of a true believer. The ideology cannot fail, it can only be failed.

It's always very instructive, watching someone like this in discussion.

Even if the beliefs being propounded weren't nonsensical and directly harmful - even if this wasn't a huge mess of sex stereotyping, medical consequences, and inducing mental health issues - the behaviour of those propounding them, the way they will dismiss any concerns and wilfully ignore any potential downside to their plans, is itself going to cause a whole other sort of harm, just from other people getting crushed in the religious fervour, due to their rights and needs being forgotten.

RumpBelle · 14/06/2022 09:58

DeaconBoo · 14/06/2022 09:50

To anyone that works in this area - what is a student supposed to do if they suspect a question in an exam is worded incorrectly, ambiguously or has an error? Just do the best they can and take the time to explain their thought processes in writing on the answer sheet?

Children may be entitled to extra time or a reader. How much you can rephrase or substitute words depends on the test, they all have very clear rules scribes and readers have to follow.
Bear in mind not all children with Sen will have a reader or scribe and that extra time is calculated based on processing normal language and not gender woo.

Peregrina · 14/06/2022 09:59

I'm not sure, but a few years back a GCSE Eng Lit question muddled up Montagues and Capulets...

Which would really throw all students whose knowledge was insecure - so probably not your A* and A candidates but all the rest.

I do recall an A level maths texbook which had an example which was wrong. I spent hours puzzling over where I had gone wrong. Much later with more knowledge I realised it was an error in the text.

TeenPlusCat · 14/06/2022 10:01

Peregrina · 14/06/2022 09:59

I'm not sure, but a few years back a GCSE Eng Lit question muddled up Montagues and Capulets...

Which would really throw all students whose knowledge was insecure - so probably not your A* and A candidates but all the rest.

I do recall an A level maths texbook which had an example which was wrong. I spent hours puzzling over where I had gone wrong. Much later with more knowledge I realised it was an error in the text.

But even then, the students had to decide whether to answer the question as written, or answer the question they thought the exam board had meant to set.

sanluca · 14/06/2022 10:03

It is not the right way forward to change the exam paper altogether to ensure all pupils have a good chance at understanding the questions but it is the right way forward to change the exam paper to indoctrinate children on gender ideology....

Like someone else said, children as collateral damage

sanluca · 14/06/2022 10:07

Having a SEN child myself I have seen firsthand how she can muddle and misinterpret questions that to me seem straightforward. She is often right, her answer could be the answer according to how she reads the question. The teachers however will stick to the prescribed corrections and she will lose marks.

She will be one of those who will go look for another person when 'they' is used out of fear of misreading a question yet again. But according to suggestions she should just try harder, amiright?

DeaconBoo · 14/06/2022 10:08

I'm not sure, but a few years back a GCSE Eng Lit question muddled up Montagues and Capulets...

That's the sort of thing I mean! (obviously suggestionsplease knows this never happens as they are written to be clear and as long as one person thinks it's fine then it must be clear to everyone else). If I spotted that on a question I'd go over and over and over it trying to second-guess whether I'm being asked a real curveball or whether there was a mistake. Probably would get that panicky gut-punch feeling that something I thought correct was there in black and white saying the opposite.

NecessaryScene · 14/06/2022 10:09

I do recall an A level maths texbook which had an example which was wrong. I spent hours puzzling over where I had gone wrong. Much later with more knowledge I realised it was an error in the text.

Part of the problem is that in formal settings - such as a maths exam! - there is a very high presumption of correctness and standard language. That the question means exactly what it says.

Trying to find the missing piece of information that would make the thing make sense is going to be the first port of call before "maybe this was worded sloppily, or is using colloquial language, or a non-standard dialect".

A sudden "their" would absolutely have me searching around for a referent or referents other than a single named individual, and wondering if a sentence had gone missing due to an editing error.

Even if I concluded that it meant the named person, I would feel compelled to add a note saying that was the assumption I was making.

You can't take the same sort of liberties in a formal setting for a general audience as you can get away with talking with your friends in your "LGBTQ+" subculture.

DeaconBoo · 14/06/2022 10:11

I do recall an A level maths texbook which had an example which was wrong. I spent hours puzzling over where I had gone wrong. Much later with more knowledge I realised it was an error in the text.

This happened with my brother with a driving theory text book. Had lodged in his brain because he thought it was counter-intuitive. Came up in the test and he put what he'd read in the book. It was wrong and they'd corrected it in the next edition!

When I worked briefly in a Primary school I recall a maths teacher telling the children that when you multiply by ten you "add a zero" to the number.

titchy · 14/06/2022 10:18

suggestionsplease1 · 13/06/2022 23:03

'Petra will receive one fifth share of an inheritance of £250. How much will they receive?'

Is that confusing?

Yes - does they refer to Petra, or the unnamed others who will get the rest of the inheritance?

Perhaps you should talk to some teens - the vast majority of them default to sex based pronouns. You might like to imagine they all use third person pronouns but they don't.

PlattyJubes · 14/06/2022 10:18

@NecessaryScene - yes exactly this.

My DD does not have additional needs but is not overly confident in maths. She has made mistakes in the past interpreting some of the lengthy verbal problems and we have always stressed to her the importance of reading the question properly. She said that the use of "they" made her question her understanding of the question which meant she spent longer reading and rereading it to check that she hadn't misunderstood. More pressure and more stress on these young people to fulfil a fascist ideology that is taking hold by stealth.

Qazwsxefv · 14/06/2022 10:25

it’s different to use of ethnicity diverse names which don’t change the accuracy of the text.

1a. Muhammad has three plums and two apples. How many items of fruit does he have?
1b. Peter has four grapes and one orange. How many items of fruit do they have?

Is question b asking how much fruit Peter has (they singular) or how much fruit Peter and Muhammad have together (they plural) ? Using they here creates confusion in a way using Muhammad rather than Paul does not.

(I’m aware that GCSE maths questions are more complex but you get the gist)

AlecTrevelyan006 · 14/06/2022 10:26

In some cases an exam board will disregard the answers to a particular question if it shown to be confusing/wrong - either as a result of complaints or their own quality checks

i know for a fact that this happens from time to time

Peregrina · 14/06/2022 10:27

They receive £200, is certainly one answer.

titchy · 14/06/2022 10:29

If there are massive language difficulties teacher or parents might make the decision that a different type of maths qualification is appropriate for them, one where they can more readily demonstrate their competence in their areas of strengths

Right. So in your world a kid who is brilliant at maths but who has a language processing disorder should be doing basic level maths rather than be given a paper with straightforward commonplace grammar? Because writing the examples in the paper in a way that appeases TRAs is more important than ensuring ND kids have a paper that can demonstrate their academic ability? Got it.

takingmytimeonmyride · 14/06/2022 10:29

My son is 20 and did the maths GCSE. He has autism and learning disabilities, so isn't expected to get a pass grade, but this is a huge achievement for him, just sitting the exam. He gets pronouns confused often, and doesn't even know that they/them is an option for some people, so something like this would confuse him greatly. His reading comprehension isn't great (he's been doing functional skills English, he wouldn't manage GCSE)

As someone who is also autistic and struggles with maths greatly, especially questions with words in (maths is numbers, in my brain, not words) it would also confuse me greatly.

RumpBelle · 14/06/2022 10:29

Part of the strategy for preparing children for testing is reading the question thoroughly and looking for consistent rules. Eg words like each, between, share are likely to be division. Words like they, pair, two names indicate two people or two parts.
Teachers already 'prepare' children with these strategies but it still means certain children are at a disadvantage, hence extra time etc.
Teaching them their also can be singular doesn't help simplify the matter and pupils who struggle with this are likely to get confused and worried. Along with other children who are thrown by the informality of the question.

Sen children should be helped to reach their full potential, not disregarded because they can't keep up with nonsensical linguistic contortions.

Clymene · 14/06/2022 10:30

Also race and ethnicity is a real thing. Pronouns are a belief system. Why are they in exams at all?

TheElementsSong · 14/06/2022 10:38

The ideology cannot fail, it can only be failed.

This sums it up exactly.

PlattyJubes · 14/06/2022 10:43

Not sure whether anyone else feels as strongly about this as i do but this thread has certainly galvanised me to take action.

I plan to write to complain about this to the exam board and the Education Secretary. I dare say I will be fobbed off with a "thanks for bringing this to our attention blah blah blah" but I will feel better for having made my feelings on this nonsense clear.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 14/06/2022 11:12

Dd is NT

she had a science question about a driver (she assumed of a car) and how much oxygen they needed while under water

obviously it was DIVER…but she spent much too long trying to puzzle it out

MercurialMonday · 14/06/2022 11:13

PlattyJubes I think it's good people are complaining.

I'm doing a lot of sitting next to DS revising for his last GCSE exams this year - 3 science ones - it's very lucky DH and I have strong science backgrounds because so many of the answers in text books/workbook are just wrong and it's alarming how many past exam paper questions are unclear.

I do wonder if it was even more ambiguous being read out aloud as in OP.

Student A Student B would have avoided pronouns and unusual names that could trip a student up - and less confident students, Sen students or student who first language isn't English are most likely to fall foul.

DD2 had a friend - she born in UK and lived here all her life but her family who most time is spent with outsides school speak their native language - ever so often we get a text asking what a word means - usually a rarer every day word that she just not come across before often in a particular context - I suspect gable end of house would throw her.

BotCrossHuns · 14/06/2022 11:13

*However, if it is a competence that is being assessed in the qualification the student cannot opt out of these questions. Well they can, but they will lose marks. Maths qualifications may have a remit of preparing for real world scenarios, and they often do situate problems in social contexts.

If there are massive language difficulties teacher or parents might make the decision that a different type of maths qualification is appropriate for them, one where they can more readily demonstrate their competence in their areas of strengths.

However for most students this is an area that can be addressed with appropriate preparation and reasonable adjustments in the timed examinations themselves.

If a teacher or apparent anticipates that a student might face difficulties with pronouns for whatever reason the right way forward is to spend more time preparing for questions so that they are in a strong position to tackle them on the day.*

This is ridiculous. LIke teachers don't already spend hours of time working on the language aspects of maths questions with such pupils - actual language disabilities are not so easily solved, or we wouldn't have Speech and Language therapists working for years with such pupils on things like pronouns, tense, word order, etc.

Many pupils with subtle language disabilities don't understand that they've misunderstood the question - it's all just part of "I can't do maths" for some of them, when actually there are some aspects of maths they can do OK at. They may not be the strongest maths candidate, but they can do enough to maybe get a grade 4, if they're asked clear questions. Yes, this can included worded questions, real-life situations etc, as long as they're worded properly. It's an area teachers already spend much time going over and working on, to help as much as they can.

even the more basic functional maths skills tests have worded scenarios (in fact, sometimes more than GCSE) - even year 6 SATS have a couple of papers on this. So it's not like you can just say 'oh enter them in something that doesn't have lanugage in if they're not up to the task'. That really demonstrates an ignorance of the types of language disorders there are and how they can affect understanding.

For many teachers, it won't be obvious what the problems are that the child is experiencing - it can take careful analysis by speech and language experts to work that out, and then to help address it. Teachers might just realise that a child is not multiplying something that the should be , and think that the child doesn't understand multiplication or when to do it, and might concentrate efforts on clues to that - when actually, the child has misunderstood the situation described, and hadn't realised that a certain value applied to each person, but thought it was for the group, for example. It's not like they can just tell students that pronouns could refer to anyone so be prepared for that. The students themselves don't recognise where they're going wrong, let alone what might be causing it.

These may not even be massive language difficulties, but really subtle ones that can have quite big effects, particularly if people don't understand where they are coming from. Something as simple as not recognising something is a question vs a statement, for example, from mixing up 'is this' or 'this is', can have huge effects. Missing off the 's' at the end of a word when processing it, and not realising there is more than one thing, same sort of problem. Imagining that there must be other people (or something else unspecified like a company where you might use 'they') involved in a problem because of the word 'they' is similar. All kinds of subtle details. The exam boards don't always realise at first how something can be misinterpreted either - luckily they do learn from some of these things being pointed out to them, and there are efforts being made to write in clearer English. Other teachers/parents/adults don't always understand how there could be any other way to interpret a sentence until it's explained what the child thought - sometimes it is an ambiguous sentence that could actually be interpreted two ways, other times it's the child mistake for mixing up words ,leaving out punctuation, not realising which parts of the sentence went together etc, and it's not how a 'normal' language processor would interpret it, but a common misunderstanding. And even those need to be avoided on a test that is about maths - even when it's about applying maths to real-world situations.

Also yes to the point about expecting the language to be formal. Children are taught that questions are worded carefully, and that in things like probability problems, you need to read exactly what is written, and not necessarily what you might assume based on how we talk in normal life. Another example might be the word 'similar' - it has a very specific meaning in maths, which is not the same as in normal life, where it means 'kind of the same'.

Not having a language disability is not a prerequisite or a competence required for doing a maths test. Yes, there are aspects of maths where you have to understand language and worded problems and situations, absolutely, and it's vital to test these. But you can still test them and be sensitive to the needs to pupils with language difficulties.

It's nothing to do with objecting to people using they/them/their pronouns in real life - my feelings on that are unrelated to them being used in a maths exam. I hadn't even realised this topic was in FWR to start with. I am not trying to erase the identity of anyone - there are in fact many ways to word a problem in a gender neutral way if that's what you want to do, and I gave examples above. it's this insistence on the fact that they/them pronouns can't be confusing to anyone who takes maths at this level that I object to, or that their problems with pronouns or language comprehension generally should just be put right with a bit of practice in advance.