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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pronouns in maths exams

315 replies

OhWhatFuckeryIsThisNow · 13/06/2022 20:19

I scribe for GCSEs. Today was aqa maths, calculator paper. Now maths textbooks and exams have long done diverse names in the examples, eg, Sarah and Rashid are making cakes...Dafydd is planting a garden, Safira is buying rope. You get the drift. This year though I’ve noticed that gender neutral has been introduced. So Kai is making a cake, they use 50 grams of sugar. One could say that making the questions genderless is ok, and maybe so if it was consistent. So there was they their, he him and she her. A few of my fellow sribers said that their candidates were confused by the wording of the questions (especially the they/theirs, the kids thought there were more than one person being talked about). I was talking about it with the maths teachers later and all of them said why can’t it be Student A, student B? And especially why cant the exam board be consistent?

OP posts:
mrshoho · 14/06/2022 15:59

Hilarious but disturbing at the same time. That insistence on language change that has swept into so many of our organisations even though 99% of us do not believe in it or want it. Language does evolve over time but this is something else altogether. Notice how it's children and young people being targeted so militantly.

nepeta · 14/06/2022 16:30

mrshoho · 14/06/2022 15:59

Hilarious but disturbing at the same time. That insistence on language change that has swept into so many of our organisations even though 99% of us do not believe in it or want it. Language does evolve over time but this is something else altogether. Notice how it's children and young people being targeted so militantly.

The hidden purpose behind these changes in language is to make it so that a person being forced, perhaps, to give preferred pronouns who then chooses "she, her" is automatically assumed to identify with femininity, not with her actual biological sex.

The former identification is likely to enforce sexist stereotypes about what being a woman means, the latter simply states one mostly observable fact (that she is biologically female) and tells most of us (except for extreme patriarchal religions or anti-feminist groups) nothing about that person's abilities, basic character, or preferences. So the latter makes the liberation of women feasible, the former pretty much closes us out of that option.

When 'they' is added to the list of pronouns, what is also added is the idea that only 'they' are not strongly clinging to traditional sex stereotypes and traditional gender roles for women and men. This is very bad for feminism, women's rights, and, as is evident in another recent thread here, even the history of female role models now often posthumously transed.

All this is the hidden underbelly of the gender identity ideology. It is built on exactly the same rigid sex/gender roles as extreme patriarchal views, with the one exception that some are allowed to jump from one box to another, in theory, but in practice women can only do this by modifying their bodies and by taking hormones.

The nonbinary option only works as long as most women accept being called women, because female people identifying as nonbinary only do that in relation to the vast numbers of women who are not (yet) doing that.

titchy · 14/06/2022 16:45

A student who is capable of the English language processing required for these sentences is capable of understanding the use of pronouns in this problem, as it is a lower level language processing cognitive demand.

Listen to yourself. There are posters on this very thread who are telling you very clearly that for some disorders using 'they' is NOT a lower level cognitive demand.

You are not an expert. Others are. When experts tell you something disadvantages a group of children bloody well listen. Have some respect for their expertise.

TeenPlusCat · 14/06/2022 16:51

I feel really quite upset by @suggestionsplease1 complete intransigence to even consider that using language designed to obfuscate will be confusing to some kids, and that it is all the fault of the schools.

My DD's maths teacher should be teaching her maths, not indoctrinating her in gender ideology. Maths is a subject where clarity matters, and exam boards have no business in setting questions using confusing pronoun combinations for no good reason, and misgendering made up people is not a good reason..

I really feel the Plain English Campaign needs to start complaining about the destruction of pronouns in general and the loss of the word woman on the NHS websites.

Clymene · 14/06/2022 16:57

@nepeta 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

mrshoho · 14/06/2022 17:02

Thank you @nepeta . You have eloquently written just what it it that is so wrong about enforced pronouns and gender identity for Women.

Good point about The Plain English Campaign. I would be very interested in their view of these language changes.

Clymene · 14/06/2022 17:05

I'm also upset @TeenPlusCat. My autistic DS has already been berated by some of his classmates for forgetting thwt Phoebe who last week used she/her pronouns is using they/them ones this week. And that David is no longer David but Davina even though he looks exactly the same as he did last week.

I'm honestly scared for him, especially when I think back to that poor teenager who was taken to court and fined because he misgendered a PCSO. You have to be a special kind of person to take an autistic teenager to court.

MercurialMonday · 14/06/2022 17:16

My DD's maths teacher should be teaching her maths, not indoctrinating her in gender ideology. Maths is a subject where clarity matters, and exam boards have no business in setting questions using confusing pronoun combinations for no good reason, and misgendering made up people is not a good reason.

I completely agree.

I did wonder if suggestionsplease1 was from USA - it's seems to be much more normal/common to have ideology and politics shoved into random subjects there.

I think there's some war ongoing in some states - who educational system varies- between right and left with text books at the moment completely ignoring the entire country educational attainment slowly sliding down international tables.

suggestionsplease1 also seem to know nothing about GCSE's or teaching for GCSEs- though they seem to know little about common SEN issues either and they claim to work in that field Hmm.

TheElementsSong · 14/06/2022 17:16

You have to be a special kind of person to take an autistic teenager to court.

As being copiously demonstrated on this thread.

Clymene · 14/06/2022 17:25

IIRC, suggestions is in Scotland. Which explains her haziness about GCSEs.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/06/2022 17:25

suggestionsplease1 · 13/06/2022 20:35

If a student is capable of GCSE maths I am sure they are capable of comprehending how they/their might be used in this way.

Students at this age are very familiar with pronouns being used to reflect an individual's preference, and the grammar of the sentence will be sufficient to establish singular or plural with no impact to calculations.

Consistency is a weird thing to bring up; it's not like the entire population only consistently use 'they, their' for themselves so why should a maths paper pretend they do?

LOL!GCSE Maths is a compulsory subject. Up to it? LOL! They all take it unless extremely special conditions apply and they keep retaking it in subsequent years until they get the Holy C/Grade 4. That means 15 year olds who can barely read, 15 year olds who cannot do questions like "the rectangle has a perimeter of 26cm. Sides A and C are 8cm long. How long are sides B and D?" (real example). Then there are the kids who speak English as an additional language, such as asylum seekers. I know a man who arrived here as a teenager, in secondary school. Incredibly intelligent and a fluent English speaker now, but you wouldn't know it from his GCSE results. The only one that actually indicates his level of ability is his maths GCSE, because at that point in time, papers focused on the maths. That was a good thing. It is also a good thing when it means teenagers who aren't fluent in English go on to study A-level MathsYou've said some weird things in this forum, but this takes the biscuit. Maybe you were top set for GCSE maths, but you clearly weren't top set enough and approachable enough that kids from the bottom set for maths asked you for help. Maybe this is why you don't know about them. Maybe you should stop obsessing about being a trans ally, and allow other marginalised groups to have a place in your life.

PlattyJubes · 14/06/2022 17:31

@Clymene - my heart goes out to your DS. My DD who is NT struggles to keep on top of all the pronoun changes within her friendship group. She's never been particularly confident or outgoing but is now reducing contact with her peers for fear of being humiliated by them for "misgendering". It breaks my heart too because I can see her withdrawing from friendships because that's easier.

I dropped her off at a Biology revision lesson earlier today and we had been discussing this thread. As she left the car I said "do they admit to biological sex being real in Biology?". She said "don't say that or you'll get assaulted". The saddest thing is that I couldn't tell if she was actually joking.

When DD was born, this is one thing that was completely off my radar of things to worry about for her future. I don't know how we have ended up here but it makes me extremely sad and extremely angry.

whataloadabullocks · 14/06/2022 17:37

I said it upthread, I'm going to say it again: WHY?
the exams are talking about fictional characters therefore why not use he or she?
There is absolutely no reason to introduce ambiguity by using 'their' or 'they'.

MercurialMonday · 14/06/2022 17:46

Clymene · 14/06/2022 17:25

IIRC, suggestions is in Scotland. Which explains her haziness about GCSEs.

I knew Scotland doesn't do GCSE and I knew that there'd been some odd things cropping up in schools but I didn't think it was that bad up there.

Fuck knows why though - some of the stuff in my DC welsh schools coming from Welsh Government has had me concerned.

sanluca · 14/06/2022 17:49

All Suggestions is demonstrating is the willingness to exclude people from society. And for what? So Suggestions can be a good ally and have warm fuzzy feelings?

Gender ideology is all about excluding people in favour of a sacred caste.

Clymene · 14/06/2022 17:53

Oh @PlattyJubes that's awful. Teenage years are bad enough as it is without adding an extra layer of complex new ever-changing rules into the mix.

suggestionsplease1 · 14/06/2022 17:56

DeaconBoo · 14/06/2022 15:47

Anyone else finding it hilarious that someone apparently thinks if they provide enough examples of questions where "they" isn't ambiguous, that will prove that there cannot exist any such questions that are?

Keep going please, I love seeing TRA logic hard at work.

Why do you think an examining body would provide an ambiguous question? These papers are proofread multiple times by multiple people to ensure clarity before being approved.

If there is a genuine concern that the phrasing was ambiguous and could lead to errors of calculation I will quite happily write in with you. But it is perfectly possible to phrase questions without any ambiguity.

I think we should all return to this thread when you can get hold of the paper in question and post up the questions that are concerning you so we can see what we are actually dealing with.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/06/2022 17:56

suggestionsplease1 · 14/06/2022 13:06

No. They might do pure maths at postgraduate level if that was the right way forward for them.

I would hope they would receive support which enabled them to achieve more general maths qualifications first, but of course individuals can have vastly differing profiles of abilities.

Well, he or she had better get more general maths quals first, otherwise the post-grad won't be happening.

As it happens, I can lay my hands on someone just like Titchy describes. Special educational needs, and very spiky academic profile- brilliant at maths, but not so much other things. Due to heavy intervention, special accommodations and so on, he was nursed through to A-level subjects, where he could specialise and avoid all the areas he can't do. And thenceforth to a degree. And now he has a job and pays tax, btw. The investment in this distressed, disabled teenager paid off for him and the country.

But it was integral to this that he got the top grade in his relevant GCSE subjects. That got him a place on his A-level courses, even though he didn't have 5 GCSEs at grade C or above. Then university admissions were willing to ignore that he had fewer than 5 GCSEs at grade C or above after personal discussion.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 14/06/2022 17:57

nepeta · 14/06/2022 16:30

The hidden purpose behind these changes in language is to make it so that a person being forced, perhaps, to give preferred pronouns who then chooses "she, her" is automatically assumed to identify with femininity, not with her actual biological sex.

The former identification is likely to enforce sexist stereotypes about what being a woman means, the latter simply states one mostly observable fact (that she is biologically female) and tells most of us (except for extreme patriarchal religions or anti-feminist groups) nothing about that person's abilities, basic character, or preferences. So the latter makes the liberation of women feasible, the former pretty much closes us out of that option.

When 'they' is added to the list of pronouns, what is also added is the idea that only 'they' are not strongly clinging to traditional sex stereotypes and traditional gender roles for women and men. This is very bad for feminism, women's rights, and, as is evident in another recent thread here, even the history of female role models now often posthumously transed.

All this is the hidden underbelly of the gender identity ideology. It is built on exactly the same rigid sex/gender roles as extreme patriarchal views, with the one exception that some are allowed to jump from one box to another, in theory, but in practice women can only do this by modifying their bodies and by taking hormones.

The nonbinary option only works as long as most women accept being called women, because female people identifying as nonbinary only do that in relation to the vast numbers of women who are not (yet) doing that.

Brilliant post, @nepeta.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/06/2022 17:59

suggestionsplease1 · 14/06/2022 17:56

Why do you think an examining body would provide an ambiguous question? These papers are proofread multiple times by multiple people to ensure clarity before being approved.

If there is a genuine concern that the phrasing was ambiguous and could lead to errors of calculation I will quite happily write in with you. But it is perfectly possible to phrase questions without any ambiguity.

I think we should all return to this thread when you can get hold of the paper in question and post up the questions that are concerning you so we can see what we are actually dealing with.

She thinks that because of the evidence it has happened, as given in the OP (Opening Post). Some children with disabilities meaning they were entitled to a scribe, reported confusion about a GCSE paper.

It is right there.

Blimey, you should empathise more with children who have difficulty understanding text. Suppose you were being marked on comprehension now?

Clymene · 14/06/2022 18:01

A few of my fellow sribers said that their candidates were confused by the wording of the questions (especially the they/theirs, the kids thought there were more than one person being talked about).

titchy · 14/06/2022 18:02

Why do you think an examining body would provide an ambiguous question? These papers are proofread multiple times by multiple people to ensure clarity before being approved

If that was the case there would never be errors or typos - but these occur every year.

But it is perfectly possible to phrase questions without any ambiguity.

Agreed. So why wasn't this one then?

suggestionsplease1 · 14/06/2022 18:02

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/06/2022 17:25

LOL!GCSE Maths is a compulsory subject. Up to it? LOL! They all take it unless extremely special conditions apply and they keep retaking it in subsequent years until they get the Holy C/Grade 4. That means 15 year olds who can barely read, 15 year olds who cannot do questions like "the rectangle has a perimeter of 26cm. Sides A and C are 8cm long. How long are sides B and D?" (real example). Then there are the kids who speak English as an additional language, such as asylum seekers. I know a man who arrived here as a teenager, in secondary school. Incredibly intelligent and a fluent English speaker now, but you wouldn't know it from his GCSE results. The only one that actually indicates his level of ability is his maths GCSE, because at that point in time, papers focused on the maths. That was a good thing. It is also a good thing when it means teenagers who aren't fluent in English go on to study A-level MathsYou've said some weird things in this forum, but this takes the biscuit. Maybe you were top set for GCSE maths, but you clearly weren't top set enough and approachable enough that kids from the bottom set for maths asked you for help. Maybe this is why you don't know about them. Maybe you should stop obsessing about being a trans ally, and allow other marginalised groups to have a place in your life.

Have you read my responses in this thread at all? I think you'll find I have addressed all your points. I support students with additional needs to achieve maths qualifications amongst the many other things I do and I receive outstanding feedback for my approachability, thanks.

DeaconBoo · 14/06/2022 18:09

Why do you think an examining body would provide an ambiguous question?

At a guess, because they don't believe the people who are telling them they found it ambiguous?

Clymene · 14/06/2022 18:16

I don't care how approachable you are @suggestionsplease1. If you're telling children with learning difficulties that they just need to try harder or need more education to understand deliberately opaque language, then you're in the wrong job.