Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria questions

[Nightmare2022]

Can anyone help me out with a discussion with my non-binary identifying dd? Is Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria recognised medically and if so can anyone send me any links to scientific papers? Are there any studies of the desistance rate among those with ROGD and can you share links please?

My dd appears to have Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, having only expressed distress with her biological sex at puberty. As a child dressing like a girl, playing with girls, playing with girls toys. She showed no preferences for any more typical boy things, never said she wanted to be a boy. The whole ‘I’m not a girl’ stuff started at puberty and after finding out about trans ideology from her friends and watching TikTok content. She is also autistic.

We have recently reached a stage where we are able to start having some conversations about gender without her calling me transphobic and me getting upset. I said to her that she appears to have Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria. She says ‘oh no, there’s no such thing. That’s been disproven’. In her view ROGD is the perspective of parents who failed to notice their child’s gender dysphoria. When I point out that she herself showed no signs of gender dysphoria, she then claims to have forgotten her childhood. However, she is a intelligent person and logic and facts do sway her. She agrees that biological sex cannot be changed and describes gender as a ‘social construct’ and the view that placing gender above biological sex was not in line with the feminist view that women should not have opportunities limited by their biological sex met with no argument from her. I don’t think she had heard this view before. I am happy for her to call herself a boys name and dress however she wants but I am not ok for her to medicalise herself with surgery and testosterone injections. Things she has said she wants. I am also not ok with the they/them pronouns because this says gender is more important than biological sex and I do not agree with this as gender is a limiting concept. For people outside my own family I am ok to use whatever pronouns they want out of politeness. I would not add pronouns to my own signature at work, as I have been encouraged to do, ‘to recognise the importance of gender’.

We also had a discussion about desistance rates in young people identifying as trans. She says it is less than 1% and I found studies where it was as high as over 80%. But the studies with a high rate were mainly of pre-puberty boys who desisted at puberty so not her situation at all. Any studies of desistance rates in girls with rapid onset gender dysphoria? Some posters on here have kindly shared their own stories of how they felt as teenage girls about their bodies, but came through and came to terms with it, and I am going to show her these.

If you got this far, thank you for reading. I can’t talk to anyone in real life about this stuff. I’m grateful for Mumsnet.

I think Im often quite confused about how to challenge this stuff and yet again, as per most of the children Im working with its a female child with autism who has been on social media picking up toxic messages about what it is to be 'a girl'.

I think lots of this just plays out and dies a death.

Equally she accepts and recognises that sex doesnt change

So what IS a girl, what is she if she is not a human female child (a girl), to say 'Im not a girl' is feeding into gender stereotypes, does she want to feed into gender stereotypes?

You could challenge on that basis but on the other hand you're trying to keep your relationship effective with her to support her through this nonsense. You must be at your wits end OP, sorry

This is a heartbreaking account of a detransitioner, and the insidious slippery slope of cult like induction she went through. You might just read it yourself to know the kind of things that go on online, but maybe share it with your daughter if you think it is a message she is open to
lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name?s=r

Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier is excellent and worth a read for your situation.

Is Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria recognised medically and if so can anyone send me any links to scientific papers? Are there any studies of the desistance rate among those with ROGD and can you share links please?

Not formally - at arises from a paper by Lisa Littman digging into this new phenomenon of mainly female transitioners from the last 10 years.

The term has entered widespread use because it's a real phenomenon, so you need a name for it, but it's not a formal diagnosis. It's more description of the symptoms.

The kind of point of the analysis is that the cause does NOT appear to be the classical "gender dysphoria" recognised as a diagnosis. The common belief around here is that it's a new outlet for all sorts of female-typical body issues - similar ultimate root cause to anorexia, cutting, etc.

Podcast with Littman here - haven't listened to this episode myself, but this "Gender: A Wider Lens" is very much the place to go for insights into this area:

She says ‘oh no, there’s no such thing. That’s been disproven’.

That's just a bullshit TRA meme. As was their way, trans activists raised a huge stink about Littman's paper, and it was withdrawn for editing, and then was republished with trivial changes. This temporary withdrawal is the foundation for some sort of myth about it being discredited/debunked/disproven whatever.

("Disproven" is way too strong, because it's not that sort of paper. It's not a maths theorem! It's just a paper saying "there's this new thing happening - we need more research!")

She says it is less than 1% and I found studies where it was as high as over 80%.

Again, no-one really knows. The <1% figures from are clearly bullshit, as they were done by digging up files of transition clinics, seeing who was on record as detransitioning - ie the patients had to have come the clinic back to tell them voluntarily. There was no follow-up. So it's an absolute lower bound.

The 80% sounds like the "desistance if transition doesn't occur", not "detransition" - most gender issues go away at puberty naturally.

I know there's just been a new study suggesting 30% detransitioning after 4 years, but I've not looked into it yet. It sounds like a more plausible figure. (If it was as low as 1%, the number of detransitioners we see around the internet wouldn't make sense - there couldn't be that many girls undergoing treatment, could there?)

Oh, check out this piece by detransitioner Helena for more of an insight into the world she might have slipped into:

By Any Other Name

Useful thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4296446-Message-from-a-future-post-genderism-world

I think it’s really sad that alot of children these days with autism are bombarded with what it means to be a girl, even in your opening thread you say she dressed like a girl and played with girls toys. My favourite colour is blue, I preferred trousers and STEM subjects, I’m a woman. I have no doubt that with my black/white thinking growing up now I would have felt pressure to think I should be a boy. It’s a horrible time to grow up and not freeing. Seeing all my friends are far more gendered with their children than our parents were with us.
sorry that doesn’t really help or give any advice.
Its so hard to find advice without being told your a TERF. Maybe some autism groups would have suggestions on that it’s ok to not be pink and glittery and just be you?

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/GnRHa_Dutch&English.pdf This study might be useful. It shows that any girls who go onto puberty blockers become more dissatisfied with their bodies, not less, which the authors suggest might lead to more of them going onto cross-sex hormones. Not quite what you asked, but it might help to show dangers of puberty blockers.

How old is your daughter? Puberty is something every human being has to go through. It's a biological process of a child turning mentally and physically into an adult. It's not an optional stage of life or something that can be tampered with without serious consequences. I'm sure you've already explained this to your daughter, but she probably needs to be reminded about it often. It's not an optional process and all of us have to go through it as part of growing up.

If you're extremely lucky, it is just an uncomfortable experience. But for many people, especially autistic girls, it's a very confusing time with a lot of discomfort and anxiety. It's scary not feeling in control of your body as it changes rapidly. Suddenly your body is growing breasts, body hair appears everywhere, menstruation is icky and weird etc. We've all been there. Becoming a woman is a strange experience.

Autistic people prefer stability and familiarity, and puberty is all about change and development. Girls start getting unwanted sexual attention from boys and men, and again this is an uncomfortable reminder that 'your body is not your own' and you can't control other people's perceptions and behaviours.

Do you think this might be one of the reasons for her suddenly wanting to control her body and how others perceive it?
It sounds like she's being fed the usual propaganda from her online and social peer groups. Try to limit the time she spends online if you can and closely monitor what sites she uses. There is a lot of propaganda and emotional manipulation in these kinds of groups. It's more important for you to connect emotionally with her and gently dig down to the root causes - a lot of it will be peer pressure and wanting to feel special. But it will also be due to the challenges that come with being an autistic girl and finding it hard to adapt and fit in with other girls and the pervasive stereotypes around womanhood.

It is good that you are letting her experiment with clothing and hairstyles but maintaining strict boundaries with regard to pronouns and any kind of medical/surgical treatment. I'm sure she will grow out of it, but of course the challenge is to keep her away from going further down the path of a 'trans identity'.
Most kids that express this kind of 'gender confusion' will desist as they grow up, especially if provided with loving support and positive ways to express themselves.

Do you have any idea where she got the idea from; school, the internet? How are the school and school friends behaving over this?

It must be very concerning for you and troubling for your daughter. The best to both of you.

Maybe some autism groups would have suggestions on that it’s ok to not be pink and glittery and just be you?

It's sad to say this, but it's better to avoid autism groups and orgs as much as possible!! The vast majority are very on board with 'gender identity' and can end up actively encouraging kids towards a 'trans identity' and transitioning etc based on sexist stereotypes.

There is definitely a need for autistic girls to have better role models. There are some good books on autistic girls and women but it's important you read through all the material yourself first, in case there's anything that could be slanted towards gender identity.
You can look up the life story of autistic women like Temple Grandin, who has achieved success while being quirky and not conforming to feminine stereotypes. Show your daughter musicians like Annie Lennox etc so she knows you can look edgy, androgynous, different but it doesn't change your sex or limit how you express yourself as a woman.

There's nothing wrong or shameful about being a woman. You're just an adult human female.

I think if I were you, I would have a look at Bayswater Support Group. It was set up by parents like yourself (I think it currently has over 400) and has lots of resources (so you don't have to search the Internet). I know they have information on autism and ROGD on their website. I believe they also hold on-line sessions which may help as it is always good to talk to people who are going through the same experiences as yourself and you may get some advice on how to support your daughter further.

It would seem like a situation where there's no solid statistics because its (deliberately) impossible to have good statistics built on shifting foundations and terms which aren't universally agreed.

You may also make headway 'using' trans logic if you're prepared to, you can make it clear that you don't believe this but treat it in a maybe I'm wrong about everything IN THAT CASE...

1)TW are W, and they do not need to have surgery to be women. When it comes to gender people are what they ARE, and they are what they say they are.
2) Some Trans people are Gender Fluid, (e.g. Pip Bunce) if it is possible that a person's Gender Identity can change from day to day it is certainly possible that hers will change slowly over the next 5 to 10 years, and can she agree that it is impossible for her to know at this stage that her GI won't evolve over time.
3) GNC is very 'in' - as a 'man' she is under no obligation to change her hair or dress and least of all her body to conform with old fashioned expectations of what a man should look like or be.
4) Therefore, she should wear whatever clothes she feels most happy and comfortable in for any given situation without feeling constrained by old fashioned toxic notions of what is appropriate and acceptable for men or women to wear.
5) Equally it is her hair, and within whatever dress code obligations she may still be subject to with school or whatever, she should do with it whatever makes her happy and comfortable. With a note that some styles require more frequent trips to the hairdressers and daily washing and styling time whereas some are much lower maintenance...Certainly men can have whatever length and style of hair they want as far as you're concerned right?
6) That having a full and satisfying sex life is an important element of life and asking that someone on the trans spectrum do anything that might prevent them from ever in their life experiencing attraction and sexual pleasure is severely misguided at best and could be construed as trans people maiming themselves to try to better fir into societies old fashioned views of what a man or woman 'should' look like.

So either your GC views are right and she should wear what she likes, cut her hair how she likes, do whatever hobbies bring her joy, love who she loves with pride BUT not take hormones or undergo surgeries which might impact on her ability to have a full and satisfying sex life.

Or you're completely wrong about everything and he should wear what he likes, cut his hair how he likes, do whatever hobbies bring him joy, love who he loves with pride BUT not take hormones or undergo surgeries which might impact on his ability to have a full and satisfying sex life.

But to throw it out there other people have a sexual orientation, and they and their orientation deserve respect and you're not quite sure how love who you love with pride is consistent with treating gender as more important than sex.

wrt pronouns you could take the line that in your opinion pronouns are not your words, they are other people's words to describe you. You do not and cannot own other people words, or other people's realities. They will use their own words to describe reality as they experience it, don't try to police other people's words as it will only upset you and them. It also massively overemphasises sex/gender differences in ways that I'm sure with the best of intentions increase discrimination against women.

Good luck and love to you both.

You might find this study useful though I've only had time for a very quick look. I hope the link works. I stumbled across it through the recent thread about Jesse Singal. I want to have a proper read, so this post is also a little self-serving bookmark:

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2046221

The study published this April on US military looks interesting, but I have only had access to its abstract. It's the one which shows an average 30% detransitioning rate, where the percentage for trans men detransitioning is roughly 40% and 20% for trans women.

Based on the abstract, the design of this study is the best I have seen so far, though it is also likely to have some problems such as a relatively short follow-up time.

My apologies, this is not specifically on ROGD but on detransitioning rates in general.

These are some detransitioner stories.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-detransitioners-what-happens-when-trans-men-want-to-be-women-again-fd22b7jhs

Thank you all. I will look through your suggestions and links.

Bear in mind many psychological diagnoses are also just names for collections of symptoms. A lot have no consistent biological markers. It's not the same as diagnosing an illness such as covid. Whether or not something makes the main diagnostic manuals is, depressingly, a far less rigorous and scientific process than you would hope. I thoroughly recommend reading Cracked by James Davies for the history of this.

I say this because the argument "rodg has been disproven" implies that all the other psychological diagnoses have the weight of science behind them. Read the book I mentioned and you will see they really don't. (Which is not to say people don't experience these conditions and don't need to be able to name them).

I just wanted to agree with everything that @NonnyMouse1337 said.

I am so cross and heartbroken at how autistic girls are being taken advantage of this way by a men's movement.
They deserve so much better than to be told the harmful lie that their body is wrong and it they "fix" it, their brain will also be fixed.
They don't need fixing! Their body and brain is absolutely fine just the way it is.

I say this because the argument "rodg has been disproven" implies that all the other psychological diagnoses have the weight of science behind them. Read the book I mentioned and you will see they really don't. (Which is not to say people don't experience these conditions and don't need to be able to name them).

ROGD has not been disproved (or proved as such).

The original article coining the term was challenged, withdrawn and reviewed again, and was then republished with some minor changes.

The criticisms I read about it had to do with the possibility that the researcher had sampled too many respondents from sites where gender-critical parents of transitioning children discussed the issues. But she was able to show that she had also obtained answers from sites which were supportive of the idea of trans children. The sampling frame was not ideal in the sense that it was really convenience sampling, but this is now overwhelmingly how various surveys and online studies are carried out.

It seems to me hard to explain the enormous increases in girls among the group seeking transitioning in any other ways except as partly, at least, based on social contagion. But I'm not sure what the phenomenon should be called.

From memory, the Cass review had words on the new cohort of trans children (female adolescents like your DD), the absence of reliable data (as not properly collated by GIDS) and the unreliability of predictions onto the future as not enough has passed yet.

I think you are doing a sterling work opening dialogue with your DD. I wish you the very best and sens you a big hug.

My understanding is that ROGD was named to give a label to a phenomenon that wasn't being discussed - the sudden shift in those presenting at gender clinics from males who had experienced gender dysphoria from early childhood to females who didn't develop gender dysphoria until shortly before/at the onset of puberty. Littman speculated about what was happening, including the possibility of social contagion, which is one reason why TRAs are so opposed to her. But ROGD hasn't been "disproven" and indeed the shift in gender dysphoric individuals still has no satisfactory explanation.

I read that 1.6 % of the general population are autistic. Whilst 35% of child gender referrals are autistic.....

TRAs declare this as brave and stunning, when actually its a nightmare situation.

When ASD charities speak up, they get tonnes of abuse and soon back down.

I hope your daughter gets through this.

Thank you to @TessaSmith for pointing me to the Cass interim review. I quote a section below which backs up @KatVonlabonk stats. It also describes Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, which is I now understand just a description for an observation. Thanks to everyone who helped explain this and why it is not a popular term in some circles.

from Cass interim review:
“3.11. This increase in referrals has been accompanied by a change in the case-mix from predominantly birth-registered males presenting with gender incongruence
from an early age, to predominantly birth-registered females presenting with later onset of reported gender incongruence in early teen years. In addition, approximately one third of children and young people referred to GIDS have autism or other types of neurodiversity. There is also an over-representation percentage wise (compared to the national percentage) of looked after children.”

I'm very sorry I couldn't point you to the actual sections as I'm swamped today but so so happy you found it useful. She also points out somewhere else that it is not possible to evaluate the success of these transitions (cohort specific) due to so little time having passed from the increase in them. I think she says the spike started from 2015, so not that many will have passed the 25 to 26 year mark where the brain reach adulthood and things settle.

Incidentally I'm a teen anorexic and later bulimic. Suffered terribly from 14 to 22. From 22 things started to get better but I felt that I constantly had to manage myself not to go back to self harm patterns. From 25.. I'm a different person. Things became quieter in my brain. I did a lot of talk therapy too. But I also feel that I settled.

I may be entirely wrong.. but I cannot but avoid seeing parallels between the plague of anorexia and bulimia in the early 2000s and now this.

Another big hug