Is it OK to be undecided about certain things?

[Veryverycalmnow]

I am interested in some issues that I see being discussed on here (about transwomen mostly). I am supportive of some of what both 'sides' are saying. I am finding that everyone I hear or read discussing this is very definite and absolute about their opinion and I wondered if anyone is just fairly neutral or confused like me and trying to understand both sides of the argument? Is it ok to be on the fence with an issue like the gender- neutral bathroom debate, for example?

I promise I'm not trying to open a can of worms but I genuinely think it is so complicated that I can't decide who is right.

It's a lot better than going into a new situation determined that you already know what you think about it.

Well right and wrong are very subjective terms so of course everyone on opposing sides will think they’re right and there’s nothing wrong with being able to see both sides. However, here on the feminist board we tend to come down on the side of what is best for women as a class, whatever the benefits to others.

I’m sure if you do some research you’ll probably end up falling further to one side of an argument than the other, because generally there will be more persuasive arguments one way than another depending on who’s making them, the width and breadth of their experience.

Of course it is ok to be undecided or on the fence about some things. It is even ok to change your mind about some things over time because if you never stop learning, new information is then always being assessed and that can result in coming to a different opinion than you had before. Never feel like you have to be decided and or that you have stick to any decision.

Thanks very much for answering. I'm reassured that I'm ok to read up a bit more and form an opinion. I've had some pretty strange conversations recently where I've been shut down for questioning things around this. I am going to arm myself with some more information.

Having a preformed definitive conclusion before examining unfamiliar arguments and concepts would be odd. Of course it's ok to be undecided in that situation.

I think it's fine to be honest and say there are some instances where you don't know what the right answer is or where a line should be drawn.

Honestly, I was like you a few years ago. I think I'm still more 'neutral' than some on here, but for me the hugest problems arise when laws and policies are written, because there is not much room for nuance there - black/white lines have to be drawn.

Yes, of course. It's a sensible position to take while researching, considering, weighing evidence and reading up.

Some of these issues are nuanced and involve a bit of complexity.

Of course it’s OK to be neutral or undecided. Why wouldn’t it be?

I am very left-leaning and have LBG people in my life that I love dearly and whole-heartedly believe should have exactly the same rights as everyone else.

When the trans thing began to emerge, I unquestioningly defaulted to the exacted same position - good for them, live your best life.

I definitely do not think like that any more, because unlike civil rights, gay rights, women’s rights (in which equality for the oppressed group doesn’t infringe on equality of anyone else), trans (women’s) rights absolutely does impinge upon women’s rights, and trans activism is profoundly misogynistic.

Clearly I am never going to be OK with that.

It’s okay in the sense that of course it’s okay - you can’t help it.

People who are radicalised won’t find it okay.

I used to be undecided but now I am not so sure

Thanks for the excellent answers everyone.

Yes I think it’s OK. I think I’m always undecided in one way, in that I base my views on evidence and science, so if that changes, I’ll change my mind. I’m always reviewing what I think and double-checking it makes sense to me, especially on this issue, and I will listen to people with different views because it helps me clarify and modify mine.

You don’t have to take a side either - you could decide what you think and it still might not fully align with one or other extreme in any given debate.

When I first heard of Bathroom Bills in my country, I thought it was ridiculous as the rare trans people I knew were gay men who only lived in large cities and they must be talking about bathrooms at clubs...I thought it was a mountain out of a molehill situation.

How naive I was...within a very, very short amount of time, young people started cropping up as trans or non-binary or gender fluid and soon I lost count of how many. Knowing these children as I did, I saw pain, trauma, neurodivergent issues and lots of mental health distress...and trans was this magic pill that would make their lives perfect.

Then, I started learning about how many AGPs there were and how girls were expected to shut up and ignore their boundaries. That, and the Women's March where pussy hats were somehow considered offensive, did it for me. I've always been a feminist, but I would never have imagined this would be the issue for feminism.

As for bathrooms, well, a few women and men can now waive the consent of all women and girls. That is how I came to change my mind on the bathrooms.

Of course its ok to be undecided. Its also ok to discuss and debate.
I don't think anyone here is against mixed sex bathrooms; I think its more a case of we are against them replacing single sex bathrooms.

Just be aware that the TRA are the side pushing no debate (because their arguments are either crap or non-existent) and are prone to outbursts of toy throwing if challenged.

It's definitely ok but it's also quite difficult. My views fluctuate, I can be sure of something one week and questioning it again next week.

I think it is a good thing to feel challenged in your own position - it gives you the chance to re-examine why you hold the views you do and to change them if you discover something that alters what you think about any particular issue.

I went from 'be kind' before I knew much to 'absolutely no compromise' once I'd started looking into the debate to my current position, which is somewhere between the two.

Just be aware that the TRA are the side pushing no debate

Yes it’s true that just by being willing to debate, think, and consider logic and evidence - whatever you conclude - you will be considered a bigot/fascist by the extreme TRA faction, because debate is in itself not allowed from their POV. I learned this early on on Twitter when I got drawn into a discussion about brain scans showing “gendered” brains and pointed out flaws in the conclusion - purely from a science method angle, not meaning to be political - and was jumped on for debating. Any purported evidence must be immediately believed and co-opted even if it doesn’t hold water or make sense. That really scared me.

I’d add that although of course you feel however you feel, I don’t think it’s complicated. There are people who like to say ‘nuance’ and ‘very complex’ a lot, but it’s sometimes because they want to confuse you about something that isn’t actually that complicated when you ask honest questions of it.

No, you must absolutely obey group think or the mob will come round and nail rats to your.... hang on a minute, no, that's another group.

It's excellent that you're undecided. It means you're thinking, working out the evidence for yourself, reaching your own conclusions in your own time, not just rushing to what someone else tells you to think, thinking critically about every source regardless of who wrote it and what their affiliations might be, and not believing anything until you reach the point of your own conviction. Bravo. All for it.

I think this topic/debate is both simple and complicated. There’s a simple reality at its heart but the ways in which it affects and appeals to people, the many ramifications and the philosophical arguments about the body and self can become complicated - it’s partly the complexity of a lot of sophistry and bullshitting that has to be unpicked, but it can become a big tangle.

RoseLunarPink This is what I am afraid of, as it's harder to learn about things when people are banning discussion on it. Anything where I'm told what I HAVE to think/ say leaves me wanting to question it more, so I'm never going to blindly agree. I got labelled as a TERF as soon as I asked questions so backed away.

No, you must absolutely obey group think or the mob will come round and nail rats to your.... hang on a minute, no, that's another group. Wink

Aye, let's not do any rat-nailing, that's really pretty horrible.

I got labelled as a TERF as soon as I asked questions

OP, that sounds familir. If people refuse to use certain words, or even think certain thoughts, it makes me want to know what's actually going on. And if we're not allowed to ask questions it makes me ask more, louder. This is why I often get asked to leave at funerals.

But mumsnet does allow debate, and people often debate different points of view on here which I’ve found very helpful. Also there’s a lot of debate on Twitter, I just can’t join in because I’d risk my career, but I can read all the arguments.

Just thinking or asking questions will get you branded a bigot or a terf by one group of activists.
You don't have to give those words any value. They're utterly meaningless. Like overdiluted ribera, there's no flavour or colour, it's just a nebulous fart, designed to shut women up.
Ask questions, enquire, work out the consequences of different actions and then decide if you can live with those consequences. If you can, remember that doesn't give you the right to force other females to do the same.