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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Census question. Do you menstruate? instead of Are you female? Madness!

48 replies

SomeWoman · 05/06/2022 10:22

I'm a longtime lurker, drawn to MN by the Feminism and Gender discussions

This article in the Telegraph has enraged me, We can't let this happen!

(I'm using a french keyboard and can't do full stops, sorry)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/04/census-could-ask-do-menstruate-instead-female-taxpayer-funded/

OP posts:
BungleandGeorge · 05/06/2022 16:42

beachcitygirl · 05/06/2022 16:12

Ok. This thread shows exactly how quickly some will spiral and read what they want to read, rather than what is actually written.

I said women who no longer or simply don't menstruated dont need reproductive healthcare.

That doesn't mean healthcare of any other type. It means what i said and nothing more.

Language being inclusive is good. I certainly don't like anything except the bare essential being gendered.

Language that's excluding of anyone is not good. That's all I said.

It's an article in a Tory rag about a piece of research.

I simply don't agree with the panic ensuing.

But you’re wrong:
reproductive healthcare includes treatment for STIs
contraception is also part of reproductive healthcare and some types can stop menstruation. So in fact some might not be menstruating due to actively receiving treatment from reproductive healthcare
not to mention those who are pregnant

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/06/2022 16:44

I haven't read the research only the torygraph article.

Yes that's clear. Some people here are quite familiar with this groundbreaking "research" paid for by the tax payer at the cost of over half a million pounds.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/06/2022 16:49

Lots of women who no longer menstruate need female healthcare. My mum had a hysterectomy at 30, they didn't take her ovaries because she was so young. She went through the menopause a decade later.

nepeta · 05/06/2022 17:38

This is what I wrote after reading the report, for what it is worth:

I read the report on the future project of abolishing legal gender with great interest. It reminded me of the story where a child had a very high fever which just kept rising and rising, and finally the agonising father broke the thermometer.

In other words, if the project, in fact, was intended to combat sexism and misogyny it would have similar effects as the destruction of the thermometer would have at fighting the child’s fever:

It would make things worse as our ability to gather statistics and to analyse data on sex-based mistreatments would be much weakened.

But my impression is that the real goal has nothing to do with oppression based on sex, still the type of oppression which globally affects the largest number of sufferers.

Rather, the report argue that the concept of ‘gender’ should take precedence.

It is difficult to see how gender is defined in the report as sometimes it is used as a synonym for sex, sometimes as something which is fluid and changing.

Yet the report wishes to anchor sexual orientation to this fluid and changing concept:

Suppose a Lesbian (based on sexual orientation in the old-fashioned way) transitions into identifying as nonbinary.
What does it mean, now, for her/them to feel same-gender attraction, i.e. to be attracted to other nonbinary people only?

Many male-bodied people identify as nonbinary, and it is not unlikely that this person would still be drawn to female-bodied people who call themselves women.

The concept of gender as an identity is problematic:

Do most people even possess an abstract gender identity that would NOT be based on living as a sexed human being but which would just happen to coincide with one’s sex or not?

It is possible that this is how transgender people explain their inner identities, but my own informal surveys have yet to find anyone who wouldn’t define their social gender on the basis of their biological sex.

This suggests that we are being asked to accept a belief which not all people share: an abstract gender identity, and that this new concept should take the place of biological sex which is certainly more objectively measurable (even with the DSD exceptions in the chromosomal definition) than an abstract inner identity?

The report acknowledges that the female sex is now being erased from progressive vocabularies while the male sex remains unaffected.

The asymmetry in these erasure trends should make us pause, because it might be driven by subconscious sexism or by sex differences (whether innate, acquired or both) in how inclusive and kind men and women are expected to be.

In the US mainstream media ‘women’ cannot be mentioned when addressing abortion rights, even though data from 2017 analyzed by the Guttmacher Institute shows that only 0.06% of abortions that year was performed on someone who did not accept the label ‘woman’ or ‘girl’. Thus, 99.9% are expected to erase their own genders in order to be inclusive!

It’s not possible to establish from your report what frameworks you used for your sampling. You state that your samples were not intended to be representative, however.
That is troubling, because your research may then have missed opinions which might have made a difference in your analysis and conclusions.

In sum, it is difficult to see what advantages erasing legal sex could have for combating sexism.
Racism and homophobia still exist, even though race and sexual orientation are not recorded at birth.

But it is fairly easy to see why replacing sex with gender (as in sexist stereotypes about femininity and masculinity or in supposed preference for traditional gender roles for one sex or the other) would benefit misogyny and sexism.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 05/06/2022 17:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/06/2022 16:44

I haven't read the research only the torygraph article.

Yes that's clear. Some people here are quite familiar with this groundbreaking "research" paid for by the tax payer at the cost of over half a million pounds.

Agreed. It would be graceful if some posters were to recognise that:
— they had made a contribution to a discussion based on their skim (at best) of a news item about a research study so it's plausible that opinions at that early stage lack approrpiate context and nuance;
—the discussion thread/s include contributions from those who are familiar with the (linked) research study alluded to in the news item;
—other contributors have an appreciation of the full context of the research and the wider impact that the project has already had on language, policy-making and law during its existence;
—there are understandably wider ambitions for the impact of this work from the researchers who lead it or participated in it;
—Prof Robert Wintermute who was a co-author of the Yogyakarta Principles is a Professor of Human Rights Law at Kings College London (home of this research study), and now regrets the lack of consultation with women for the creation of Yogyakarta: [Prof Wintermute] now says the international human rights community got it wrong in merging lesbian and gay rights with the idea of a right to have “gender identity” replace sex.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/yogyakarta-principles/

CupidStunt22 · 05/06/2022 23:04

Language that's excluding of anyone is not good. That's all I said

Sorry, bu this is idiotic. Language is MEANT to exclude. Especially in a census. It is meant to count how many people are in a specific group. It is specifically meant to group all women together and exclude all men. It is meant to group all kids together and exclude all adults. It is meant to group ethnic groups together and exclude others.

It is quite literally the fucking point of a census.

GreyCarpet · 06/06/2022 06:28

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/06/2022 10:46

It's right that a government check what's appropriate inclusive language from time to time.

What's inclusive about it? What about women who don't menstruate but still need female provision? It's the opposite of inclusive.

Exactly. A friend of mine is now 53 but she went through the menopause at 33.

She would answer 'no' to Do you menstruate? because she hasn't for 20 years but that doesn't mean she isn't a woman and doesn't have health/social needs related to being a woman.

It's a ridiculous question.

Terfydactyl · 06/06/2022 06:30

beachcitygirl · 05/06/2022 16:12

Ok. This thread shows exactly how quickly some will spiral and read what they want to read, rather than what is actually written.

I said women who no longer or simply don't menstruated dont need reproductive healthcare.

That doesn't mean healthcare of any other type. It means what i said and nothing more.

Language being inclusive is good. I certainly don't like anything except the bare essential being gendered.

Language that's excluding of anyone is not good. That's all I said.

It's an article in a Tory rag about a piece of research.

I simply don't agree with the panic ensuing.

I said women who no longer or simply don't menstruated dont need reproductive healthcare
How will the census know how many women there are if they are asking for menstruators? I have variously been too young, on birth control, pregnant and now peri menopausal. Still needed reproductive healthcare for a big part of that time.
Many many women on the mini pill, never have a period then, so strictly speaking they dont menstruate because of the pill, which is the very definition of reproductive healthcare.

Whatwouldscullydo · 06/06/2022 06:52

The fact there is someone on this thread who thinks we basically turn into men amd no longer need female specific care once our periods stop shows precisely why "inclusive" language is so problematic.

Everyone has a sex whether they like it or not. Their wish to deny that shouldn't be our problem.

pearly1792 · 06/06/2022 07:12

So when you have gone through menopause and no longer menstruate you become male? Who'd of known.

KatVonlabonk · 06/06/2022 07:34

I don't menstruate, but remove my IUD and I would. So sick of this stupid sh*t.

WhiteFire · 06/06/2022 07:40

beachcitygirl · 05/06/2022 10:25

Not all women menstruate. A census is about health care provision amongst other things. I'm
a 50 year old woman I don't menstruate. I have no need of reproductive health care.

My mum is 80 & long ago had a hysterectomy & doesn't menstruate.
Stop the needless Pearl clutching.

My Mum has recently had an oophorectomy at 77.

I'm not sure what you think happens post menopause for reproductive health care to no longer be needed.

NotTerfNorCis · 06/06/2022 07:41

Yep it's ridiculous because:

  1. It's an intrusive question.
  2. It won't identify people who need female health care - not all will menstruate.
  3. Even though the intentions behind it are clearly meant to be 'trans-inclusive', it will probably upset trans people by reminding them that they are actually female, or that they are not actually female, as the case may be.
FOJN · 06/06/2022 07:59

beachcitygirl · 05/06/2022 16:12

Ok. This thread shows exactly how quickly some will spiral and read what they want to read, rather than what is actually written.

I said women who no longer or simply don't menstruated dont need reproductive healthcare.

That doesn't mean healthcare of any other type. It means what i said and nothing more.

Language being inclusive is good. I certainly don't like anything except the bare essential being gendered.

Language that's excluding of anyone is not good. That's all I said.

It's an article in a Tory rag about a piece of research.

I simply don't agree with the panic ensuing.

You said a census was about healthcare provision among other things. On that we agree. You then talked about you not requiring reproductive healthcare and suggested any concern about changes to census questions was "needless pearl clutching". Posters have pointed out that females have needs beyond reproductive healthcare; how do we plan for that if we don't know how many females there are? Asking about menstruation will exclude a large proportion of the female population how will resources be allocated for them?

Breast cancer predominantly affects post menopausal females; how are we going to adequately fund treatment if we are only counting women who menstruate as female?

Here is a TM talking about the importance of acknowledging biology reality and about how the pressure to use inclusive language makes healthcare professionals fearful about using clear, accurate and unambiguous language. The TM in the video was found to have an ovarian tumour and other female specific health problem which required surgery.

Are you male or female is as inclusive as asking are you human.

FemaleAndLearning · 06/06/2022 10:00

Thanks for link to the report Embarrassing. I've had a quick skim but I'm finding the report really confusing and hard to comprehend. Sex, gender and gender identity all seem to mean the same thing. When the report talks about single sex spaces it says this

Women-only spaces have long provided important sites of community, identity, and pleasure. Decertification doesn’t stop such gender-specific provision and activities from taking place (sees ection 9). What it does is remove legal status as a basis for determining access

what does that mean reality? If a man says his gender is woman surely that means he can have access.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought there had only 5000 GRCs issued out of a UK population of 60 million? Why would we changed all our systems at huge cost for these people who can change their sex marker on their birth certificate.

It all seems overly complicated to me.

334bu · 06/06/2022 10:03

Thank you for that link and I hope that the prognosis is good for that brave transman.

FOJN · 06/06/2022 10:28

334bu · 06/06/2022 10:03

Thank you for that link and I hope that the prognosis is good for that brave transman.

The diagnosis and surgery have been discussed in later videos and all seems well.

Cailleach1 · 06/06/2022 12:57

beachcitygirl · 05/06/2022 10:25

Not all women menstruate. A census is about health care provision amongst other things. I'm
a 50 year old woman I don't menstruate. I have no need of reproductive health care.

My mum is 80 & long ago had a hysterectomy & doesn't menstruate.
Stop the needless Pearl clutching.

A woman doesn't menstruate whilst pregnant either. Will she arrive at the hospital in labour and be told she doesn't need any reproductive healthcare. Because she isn't menstruating...

Imagining lots of bonkers situations now, where women are deemed 'pearl clutching' if they expect suitable healthcare vis a vis pregnancy, cervical smears, cancer screening, menopause etc.

AelinAshriver · 06/06/2022 13:08

I am 31 years old and last month, I had to have an emergency hysterectomy.

Not only have I lost my womb and can no longer have children, I am suddenly man?

HermioneWeasley · 06/06/2022 13:17

The census is used for planning including healthcare, so it makes sense to find out how man6 female people there are, and how many male people.

ask8ng respondents whether they menstruate doesn’t accurately identify the number of female people. Surely it makes sense to ask people whether they a4e male or female? I don’t need to know their gender identity any more than I need to know their star sign or hair style.

SunThroughTheCloudsAt6am · 06/06/2022 13:23

I said women who no longer or simply don't menstruated dont need reproductive healthcare.

I'm still giggling at this sentence. At the idea that pregnant women don't need reproductive healthcare :D

I've said on the other thread, if they're trying to avoid sex/anatomy questions, they'll get better accuracy asking if you ejaculate than menstruate. But that even better (although pointless give you could just ask sex) is if you have a penis or a uterus (to the best of your knowledge I suppose)

Belovedfool · 06/06/2022 13:26

Well, that's a crap question. Why don't they ask if we pee sitting down or standing up? Do they need to know if we ask somebody to pull our finger when we need to fart? Order a pint of Guinness, or a dainty wee cocktail 🍸?

Snugglepumpkin · 06/06/2022 13:32

Gilead needs that data.

Can't think who else might need to identify the most likely to be fertile women in a population.

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