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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Greens staffer accuses MSP of 'weaponising religion' against transgender people

23 replies

MagnoliaTaint · 02/06/2022 15:12

If you listened to the evidence session this week, you may have caught the Conservative MSP Pam Gosal, talking about why some women may ask for a female HCP.

She's now been accused of 'weaponising religion'.

Pam Gosal had said: 'many Muslims have voiced with me to ask these questions'

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-green-activist-accuses-sikh-27123774?fbclid=IwAR2OY5PuUf1z2OOWrDgx9FoKXfPiJvwwIC7J5_bwUn5EujJkjQVCAO6N7rc

This Tristan:

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=477331209686837

He apparently dismissed concerns over women's safety as 'laugh-worthy'.

OP posts:
MangyInseam · 02/06/2022 16:29

Disagreemment is an attack, so obviously a point of disagreement is a weapon.

Hoardasurass · 02/06/2022 17:16

Why am I not surprised that this person is a member of the green party

RhannionKPSS · 02/06/2022 17:31

The committee at next week’s hearing will hear from Church of Scotland, but not from any Muslim organization, or any Jewish organization. It’s absolutely appalling.

RhannionKPSS · 02/06/2022 17:33

Pam Gosal really needs to speak up forcefully about this “ oversight “ omission or deliberate action.

MagnoliaTaint · 02/06/2022 18:29

RhannionKPSS · 02/06/2022 17:31

The committee at next week’s hearing will hear from Church of Scotland, but not from any Muslim organization, or any Jewish organization. It’s absolutely appalling.

Really? That's pretty poor.

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TheBiologyStupid · 02/06/2022 22:08

Grrr! Poor Pam Gosal's serious point was dismissed annoyingly enough by some members of the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee members on Tuesday without this additional nonsense.

During the committee hearing, Jen Ang of JustRight Scotland compared Gosal's mother needing to see a (biologically) female doctor for (protected characteristic) religious reasons to her own mother wishing to see a Chinese doctor, which she said was "an expectation that could not necessarily be met". Naomi McAuliffe of Amnesty International Scotland indirectly compared Gosal's mother to "someone with racist views [who] might not want to be seen by a doctor of colour".

WTAF?!

TheBiologyStupid · 02/06/2022 22:09

Oops, I meant members of the panel giving evidence to the committee, not members of the committee itself.

MagnoliaTaint · 02/06/2022 22:59

Some relevant sections from the transcript:

Pam Gosal:

'I want to talk a bit about religion. You just mentioned carers. There is an issue that deeply concerns me as someone from an Indian religion. I will have to word this in the right way in order not to offend anybody here. For example, if my mother goes to the doctor, she will ask for a woman. She is old-fashioned—she does not know any different. She will ask for a woman doctor. If she did not ask, she might get a doctor who was trans and she would not know, which would break a lot of religions, especially the Muslim religion. Many Muslims and Indians have voiced questions to me about what the position would be with regard to single-sex spaces. Do we change our religions in that case?'

...

'It does break your religion—I can tell you that. It breaks your religion completely, because women would not be allowed to be seen by a doctor of the male sex at all'

...

Susan Smith:

'Muslim women have said that they are frightened of speaking up because they see the abuse that women get anyway, which is compounded by the fact that people tell them that their religion is, in and of itself, a bigoted religion'

...

Dr Kate Coleman:

'Dr Coleman: Yes. First, I thank you for raising the issue of religion. As an Orthodox Jewish woman, I see that women in my community are going to be unprotected, so thank you for raising that.'

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MagnoliaTaint · 02/06/2022 23:05

Jen Ang:

'It is also really important to know that having our rights in certain areas protected does not give us absolute rights over other things. Just to be really stark, I would point out that if my mother, for example, were to say to me, “I only want a Chinese doctor”, that would not necessarily be an expectation that could be met. There are some areas where we give people consideration, because we have to think carefully about things such as access to medical care, appropriateness, competing rights and so on. However, there are other areas where the national health servicemakes a decision about the processes that are in place and which are, in fact, clear and transparent.
However, I want to come back to your question about what if we inadvertently breach a person’s rights with regard to religious practice or expression in the course of maintaining the current system. As was outlined earlier—and I would invite Naomi McAuliffe to speak to this, too—we know that that sort of thing falls within the operation of our current human rights frameworks and the Equality Act 2010. Both frameworks provide really well-understood mechanisms for balancing rights and, indeed, the Scottish Human Rights Commission has stated that it does not see a clear risk to the rights of others in this area.
However, if there were to be such a case, we would look at whether there was a real and concrete risk—that is, whether the exercising of a particular right caused a real and concrete prospect of harm. If so, we would then need to think about whether the balancing mechanism needed to come into play and, if so, we would look at the most minimal intervention and at issues'

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TheBiologyStupid · 02/06/2022 23:10

You're right of course Magnolia, the ignorance was only coming from one side of the debate (as per usual).

123Callie · 02/06/2022 23:22

What a mess. I’ve wondered for a while how the transgender debate would play out once people started speaking up for Muslim and Orthodox Jewish women. It seems that they are going to be told that they are basically racists and that requesting a female doctor is comparable to insisting on a Chinese one. Just like lesbians are also racists for not sleeping with men.

MagnoliaTaint · 02/06/2022 23:40

What worries me most is that many women - at least according to what Pam Gosal, Susan Smith and Shonagh Dillon were saying, are afraid to even raise the issue. So all the comfortable government-funded organisations are able to hand-wave the problem away.

'Shonagh Dillon, the chief executive of Aurora New Dawn, which is a centre down south that aims to tackle violence against women, did a big piece of work with Muslim women. She spoke to a lot of them and found that there are real fears and real concerns. We have heard similar concerns from women in Glasgow who have started self-excluding from the gym. Those women went to check whether the gym could guarantee that the women-only sessions would be women-only sessions and they were told that the sessions were held on the basis of self-identification. People say that it is a remote possibility, and it probably is—it might not happen. However, the fact that it could happen has meant that those women have started to self-exclude. They are being pushed out of the public sphere. The saddest thing about all that, as I keep coming back to, is that it hurts the most vulnerable women. It hurts women from ethnic minorities, women who have been victims of abuse and working-class women the most,'

Susan Smith, from the transcript

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xxyzz · 03/06/2022 03:12

The far left have delighted in telling Jews we're 'weaponising' anti-Semitism for years now. Extending this kind of racist attack to Muslims too is par for the course for the regressive far left.

No difference between the far left and the far right. Racists and misogynists the lot of them.

Lovelyricepudding · 03/06/2022 08:55

RhannionKPSS · 02/06/2022 17:31

The committee at next week’s hearing will hear from Church of Scotland, but not from any Muslim organization, or any Jewish organization. It’s absolutely appalling.

The church of Scotland is barely a religious organisation. More of an establishment social club. There may be a few religious churches within it but I am sure the Scot Gov have found themselves a very TWAW spokesperson.

Lovelyricepudding · 03/06/2022 08:56

But in terms of 'weaponising' that is projecting.

Artichokeleaves · 03/06/2022 11:47

Pomo twaddle for 'shit that's a point that I can't argue with so I just have to whine that you're breaking the rules to raise it'.

Stupid, childish, ridiculous. Other people's needs are not 'weapons' if they happen to conflict with you getting exactly what you want, and most people manage to cope with this by about age 5.

MagnoliaTaint · 03/06/2022 12:05

Women survivors of rape/assault who have trauma responses that mean they are afraid of males are 'weaponising' their trauma.

Women whose religious beliefs require single sex spaces are 'weaponising' their religion.

As far as I can see, any woman saying 'no' to males being included in the definition of 'woman' is immediately described as 'weaponising' something.

It's almost like a defensive response to incursions on female consent is being described as an aggressive act. DARVO.

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Coyoacan · 03/06/2022 13:28

How on earth can Muslim women express discontent about something as "modern" as men saying they are women, when Islam is always stigmatised as being mediaeval?

But that should not mean that governments can ride roughshod over their rights under the Equality Act

MagnoliaTaint · 03/06/2022 13:42

Is Islam stigmatised for being medieaval? Bit of an odd way to cast it - it's the newest of the Abrahamic religions. I don't know the Islamic scripture/canon; from what I understand many of the issues feminists have with Islam are as much to do with cultural context as the religion itself. Which could, of course, go for many, if not most religions. I can't think of a single one that isn't the product of a sexist society.

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Coyoacan · 03/06/2022 15:16

Is Islam stigmatised for being medieaval?

Well that is certainly the adjective most often applied to it by a lot of ignorant people, including less informed feminists.

That is why they choose a majority Muslim school to introduce the radical transagenda a couple of years ago. I'm afraid I cannot remember the name of the programme, but the actual issues that parents had with it got lost in all theanti-Muslim hype.

MagnoliaTaint · 03/06/2022 15:37

'No Outsiders'

aobm.org/what-is-no-outsiders/

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Coyoacan · 03/06/2022 16:13

Thanks @MagnoliaTaint

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