If TWAW, why do we need separate spaces for women?

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

Just that really. I'd genuinely like to hear about this from people who believe that TWAW. If we go along with the idea that woman is a state of thinking and nothing to do with your biology, then I would be really interested to know why we want to keep any segregated spaces rather than just having everything open to all (toilets, sports, hospital wards, prisons etc.).

I'm genuinely baffled as to why it makes sense to group me with some male born and some female born people as I can't see what the commonality is.

I don't want this to descend into the normal chaos of non-answers and insults but can anyone just simply explain to me why they think we need separate spaces for people who identify as women?

You get TRAs going on about how they're nobly breaking down a form of discrimination by letting men into women's spaces, but they hope you don't notice that they're advocating for discrimination by "gender", and don't ask them why we should do that.

This point is well made.

Because TW are not W. Transwomen are transwomen, so biologically male. No amount of hormones or surgery can change that.

Women need safe spaces so that they are protected from men.

TW need safe spaces to be protected from men. Not the same spaces as women, though.

Other men and boys are still at risk from men in men's spaces. But that's somewhat beyond the scope of discussion here.

Obviously as a woman I do not necessarily have anything much in common with other women besides biology. Personally, most of my friends are male. Same sex spaces are not about what we have in common. They are about safety, privacy and dignity for women, based on biology.

TW need safe spaces to be protected from men. Not the same spaces as women, though.

Other men and boys are still at risk from men in men's spaces. But that's somewhat beyond the scope of discussion here.

Why is it beyond the scope of discussion here? Men being violent towards 'transwomen', boys and other men is all part of the same thing. The solution is to sort out male violence towards other males, including gender nonconforming males. The cause is men and men should be trying to solve it, not pass the problem onto women.

Bar prisons (where surely there could be vulnerable sections are TW or vulnerable men) are TW actually at risk in mens facilities? What are the stats?

I can see why women are more at risk from men due to stats on sexual crime largely being committed by men and there is also the dignity angle for both sexes and women are physically weaker but none of those apply to TW.

Yes that's exactly it. I wanted to know if there is any argument for the former as I've never heard it. See not as TRAs seem to be ignoring this!

I also wonder how many would actually transition if they could be fully feminine but still biologically male.

All Tw remain biologically male, including the 5-10% who undergo surgery to remove their penis and testicles.

Gender segregation came about in an era when people thought there was some commonality between all women
Sex segregation, not 'gender' segregation.

Yes, sorry. I grew up in an era where they meant the same thing and I sometimes slip back into gender just being a polite way of saying sex.

If we believe trans ideology then that was wrong
We don't believe in gender identity ideology so what's the point of your nonsense posts?
We all know the difference between women and men.

Yes I know the difference between man and woman and for me it's all biological and never changes. I don't believe in GI. I was just trying to understand how people can find gender segregation a useful categorisation tool when there is no commonality of definition. For me, I'm happy to be grouped with other women as we share our biology and share a somewhat common experience of sex-based oppression. I have nothing more in common with a TW than any other male. I just wanted to know if there are any arguments for this even if I don't agree with them. Perhaps this is another issue which TRAs try and keep in the dark so as not to expose that they actually have no argument other than 'shut up women'

Sorry, haha. As a first time poster I obviously don’t know how to use the board. This is supposed to be another thread! I’ll delete.

I'll have a bash at this. 😁

The argument will be something about women's facilities being more appropriate for feminine presenting people. There's more room, there's no urinals, there's bigger mirrors. Plus there will be the mind warping point about needing protection from the "male gaze" as a TW.

In truth, it's all about validation and access. I do think, however, some TW seem to be looking for "the secret" to womenhood, and part of their demand for access is because they think they will find it or observe it in female spaces. They don't realise there isn't one: instead, they just believe nasty women are keeping it from them, and thus they can never be 'whole.'

The bottom line is that accepting and respecting that female people have specific needs requiring single sex spaces, means saying to non-female people that there are limits on recognising that male person as a woman.

Saying that a homosexual female has a right to perceive someone as male regardless of how they self-identify and therefore refuse to have sex with them, places limits on recognising that male person as a woman.

Saying that safeguarding girls means that all biological males must follow the same expected procedure for the safety, wellbeing and privacy of those girls, means placing limits on recognising that male person as a woman.

This is essentially what is meant as 'transphobia' - to not unconditionally view a male person as a woman if they identify themselves to you in that way and to utterly subordinate everything, and every female need, exclusion, distress, safety, even actual bloody assault and rape to that male person's wish to have no limits on their transition^ .

A male person's distress at boundaries and limits to their personal freedom does not outweigh the needs of all females. The endless arguing and wrangling is a never ending attempt to try and wrest those boundaries off females to male benefit. There are words for that. We are not talking about kind, inclusive, tolerant behaviour that is capable of compromise or mutual respect, or caring about anything except the male person's interests.

Hence the problem. The 'hate' is simply women refusing unconditional surrender and subordination.

I think a lot of TRAs do actually call fir the scrapping of separate facilitues, hence the number of unisex toilets springing up everywhere. You're right that there is an inconsistency in saying biology is irrelevant but also saying we need separate facilities which is why the likes of Stonewall are telling everyone to scrap them

The logical conclusion of the gender argument is that women and men shouldn’t be segregated. They go on about how you can’t tell someone’s sex just by looking , in fact sex isn’t even a binary. Sex is unknowable, changeable, and vague. As for gender, you can’t even tell someone’s gender by appearance because gender presentation has nothing to do with gender identity. So the sole determining difference between men and women is an invisible, private mental state that has no outward manifestation.

If bodies, behaviour and physical features have nothing to do with the distinction between men and women, and the only difference is a mental state, then not only should there be no segregation (what’s the point ? We don’t segregate areas by people who like ice cream , or Christians , or people who are tories) but I fail to see how there can be segregation. You can’t verify if someone is a man or a woman unless you ask them and then they could easily lie.

of course the genderists actually love gender so they don’t want a world where everything is mixed sex. They want transwomen to enjoy the validation of women’s spaces.

If TWAW… they aren’t women.

why do we need separate spaces for women? … for privacy, dignity and safety.

Just that really. I'd genuinely like to hear about this from people who believe that TWAW.

My observation is that people who say they believe that TWAW generally also say that TW should be entitled to use spaces / services for women and be included in women’s sporting events.

Those who say they believe that TWAW but don’t think TW should be included in spaces / sports are obviously kidding themselves (or lying) that they believe TWAactuallyW.

It also fundamentally posits that the gender identity based needs of a biological male always, in every situation, without exception, are unconditionally more important than any need of any female. And that the female needs must be dismissed, belittled, unmet, and if need be females who won't shut up about them be excluded and punished, to achieve this.

While trying to say that binary sex doesn't exist.

Spot the male supremacism in this.

Spot on.

Agree. I can see plenty of good, logical reasons to separate by sex. The ONLY reason I can see to separate by gender is to make TW happy and validated. I don't think it works for most TM.

Exactly.

You can't just take a bite out of the ideology, you gotta eat the whole thing.

A man on Twitter said Lia Thomas could use the ladies locker room, but couldn't swim in the womens team.
I mean...🤨

I've asked this question of TRAs quite often, OP. The rationale for sex-specific spaces is obvious. I can see the reasoning for completely unisex spaces, although I disagree with it. I've never understood the logic in dividing anything by gender, even if one believes in it. It makes as much sense as dividing by starsign.

Usually I don't get a coherent response. The closest is the assertion that TW are vulnerable and at greater risk in male prisons, toilets, etc. - and they're safer in the women's. But by that logic women's spaces should also let in gay men, old men, disabled men, teenage boys...

Like others in the thread, I can only conclude that it's all about validating the genderfeels. The TRAs are just unwilling to say so outright.

And how does it compare vs attacks on gay or effeminate-appearing men, men in general?

I believe this is all just a mix up of the English language.

Gender was invented as a word because people didn’t like saying sex. Because English and coy, and sex means sex but was also short hand for sexual intercourse - so we Brits couldn’t have that. Quite a convenient one for parents may I add - I remember when I was young and people started giggling about sex in the latter years of primary school playground. I asked my parents and they dodged that one by saying ‘it’s the difference between a man and a woman’.

Nowadays gender is being used to refer to some kind of innate mindset based on masculine / feminine stereotypes and traditional societal roles.

So it all boils down to whether you think a woman is a physical state or a mental state.

To switch your original question to look from a different angle - why would we have had separate spaces in the first place if it was a difference in mental state?

I believe this is all just a mix up of the English language.

Well... more that the use of 'gender' as a euphemism for sex has been cynically used by people who want to downplay (or even, ridiculously, deny) the latter, and make it mean... well, it's hard to pin down what, which I think is what the OP wants to know.

It's often blindingly obvious that 'gender' is being used precisely to mean sex. I recently did an online medical thingy and was asked for 'gender' with a choice of male or female. On choosing the latter, a supplementary question re the possibility of pregnancy appeared.

Gender took hold to stop people writing "yes please" on forms...

This. I wish we could like posts on MN