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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Why the sexual revolution has been a disaster for women

151 replies

MalagaNights · 28/05/2022 12:50

I wonder what people's thoughts are on this article?

I've been thinking about this for a while, reflecting on my own views and experiences when younger and many of the threads I see on here now, from younger women unhappy with dating or fwb situations, or men who won't commit.

It's interesting she uses the line about sex having become separate from reproduction, which is something I've heard the USA right wing commentators make.

While the pill and access to abortion have undoubtedly allowed women expanded opportunity because we can now control our reproductive choices, do we need to recognise some of the negative aspects of this in our relationships with men which has led to a hypersexualising of women and lack of men's responsibility around sex?

I'd be interested in people's perspectives on this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10862331/Why-sexual-revolution-disaster-women-Feminist-Louise-Perry-sparks-fierce-debate.html

OP posts:
ComtesseDeSpair · 30/05/2022 19:44

*Shame has a function in imposing limits but can also be utilised deliberately oppressively.

But what happens to a society when shame is eliminated? I don't think the outcomes for women & children are going to be good.*

But I don’t think we have eliminated shame. I think ultimately, the reason so many women find it so devastating when e.g. they have sex on a second date and then he disappears is that women are still sexually oppressed by society and taught to feel shame for having casual sex - so that rather than walk away thinking “well, he was clearly a total dick, but ultimately he was a stranger so really I’ve lost nothing and at least I got some enjoyable sex out of it”, too many women feel like they’ve been “used” or that they’ve “given away” something they shouldn’t have. The shame is still there and it still speaks.

I think the article is very over articulated. I agree with the previous posters who said that the problem is that we haven’t dismantled the patriarchy, not that we’ve created more freedoms for women. The separation of sexuality from pregnancy and motherhood, reliable contraception and legal abortion are without a doubt the best things which have ever happened for women. Yes, they have also created a better landscape for men (although I don’t really agree that men have ever really had to take responsibility for sex of its outcomes: prior to reliable contraception and legal abortion they may have been forced to marry the women they were shagging if she fell pregnant; but in the main those sorts of marriages worked out far worse for the woman than they did for the man, anyway.) But frankly, given the choice between the issues faced by women in developed countries today, and the reality that a few decades ago more or less every single sexual encounter between the ages of 12 and 50 came with the risk of a pregnancy which couldn’t be prevented or safely ended, I’d pick the sexual revolution.

user1477391263 · 08/06/2022 03:25

I have read some extracts from this and ordered the book; it looks like a very interesting read.

I'll update after I've read it, but my feeling is that I'm going to agree with some bits and disagree with others.

From the overviews and extracts I've looked at, it looks as though the book could have benefited from more cross-historical and cross-geographical comparisons. For example, out in East Asia where I live, some countries have generalized use of the birth control pill and abortion, and some haven't, or one of the other, or the timing was different. Yet ideas about family formation and rates of out-of-wedlock births have remained very very conservative, regardless of these differences. I'm not sure the pill makes the big differences she suggests. Abortion, similar. Meanwhile, in much of Latin America, there was a big move towards looser unions and high rates of out-of-wedlock births quite a while back, while widespread access to things like the Pill and legal abortion happened a lot later and has been quite recent. Stuff like that. As far as I can see, the only rule is that "Culture eats everything else for breakfast, and everything is downstream of culture."

My experience of living in a society (Japan) where marital norms are very conservative, is that there are upsides and downsides, and also things that remain very much the same.

It hasn't done anything to stop porn and prostitution culture here, for example, (and prostitution was arguably commoner before the sexual revolution in most countries, including Japan--in Victorian London, around half of men regularly used prostitutes, as opposed to about 10% today).

A very conservative culture about marital norms in places like Japan and China and South Koreayou must NOT have babies out of wedlock, if you're miserable in your marriage you just informally separate and don't live together or have sex together again, you won't be allowed to become a single mother by choice via sperm donationhas some benefits, as it means fewer children are exposed to the risks and upheavals of stepfathers/mum's boyfriends, blended family drama and the like.

But it also means fewer children get born in the first place, as premaritally conceived kids get aborted rather than born, and people just informally separate from hated spouses rather than divorcing and remarrying and perhaps cementing that union with an additional child. Most demographers agree that in developed countries, more conservative norms around childbearing correlate closely with low fertility rates. And that issue will also destabilize society in other ways, long term. For people like LP, who are pronatalist, this means that some difficult conversations about trade-offs will need to be had. These conservative norms also deprive many women of the joy of having a child that they might have loved very much. I should not need to add, that these norms also result in some cruel stigmatization and mean-spirited, narrow-minded treatment of any family who falls outside these norms.

I just mentioned abortion; LP seems to treat the Pill and abortion as part of the same package, but that's not the case universally. Generally, people shift towards small families as societies modernize, regardless of whether they have the Pill (it's still very rarely used in Japan, for instance; it only became common in the old Soviet bloc decades after these women had started having very small families). What the Pill does seem to do is reduce the need for abortion, because it has a lower failure rate than most other methods. So again, hard conversations about trade-offs will need to be had, for those who aren't keen on the birth control pill.

Sorry for long and rambling post. Just posting some initial thoughts here.

MangyInseam · 08/06/2022 03:54

I don't think a sexual revolution has to follow the introduction of reliable birth control, and I'm not sure that is what LP was saying so much as you could never have that kind of sexual revolution without some kind of technological control of procreation. I'd add antibiotics to that, as incurable STIs would also put a real damper on a sexual revolution, especially when it began to impact children.

It's an interesting question wheher just birth control without abortion would have the same effect. I'm not sure. THe fact is that if there is a lot of sex, even with birth control a certain amount of unplanned pregnancies will come out of that, and in some ways people may be even less prepared to go through with them. It's a little different now with some of the shots, impants, and new generation IUDs, but a lot of people overstimate the long term effectivness of things like condoms or the Pill. Over a few years they will produce a fair number of unwanted pregnancies.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 08/06/2022 08:51

Very interesting information about international trends, thanks user1477391263.

ThinkingaboutLangClegosaurus · 08/06/2022 11:08

MalagaNights · 30/05/2022 11:16

The concept of shame is interesting, and the current view that no one should ever experience it.

We don't just want legal freedom under the law, we want total freedom as an individual to live without judgement and associated shame. But this requires no expected self limitations even on the choices you are free to make and even no linking these to negative consequences because this could be seen as shame.

But this removes the ability to even discuss which choices may lead to better outcomes or what norms we choose to live with, whilst still accepting the freedom to reject the norms.

It is this concept that has lead to the queer movement. Total freedom, no norms, no boundaries, no shame.
And the Trans movement within this that even your body cannot limit your freedom to be and choose what you want.

Freedom without any self imposed limits or group norms agreed to be functional is just another type of tyranny.

Shame has a function in imposing limits but can also be utilised deliberately oppressively.

But what happens to a society when shame is eliminated? I don't think the outcomes for women & children are going to be good.

Good points, but I’d differ on the meaning of shame. To me, the shame you feel when you’ve done something wrong, eg hurt someone or let them down — the ‘shame’ that queer theory opposes — is actually your own conscience. It’s a good thing, valuable, essential really in any society that’s based on people getting on with each other.

Queer theory is about the individual breaking boundaries, including other people’s boundaries. A policy of force and selfishness.

AdamRyan · 08/06/2022 13:01

I agree with a lot of the article and with PP about backlash.
I feel lucky to have been a young woman in the 90s- no real shame about sex outside marriage any more, contraception, quite a big focus on women's pleasure, far less on being shaved/performing certain acts. I felt sex was about fun, and I had a great time.

Men I think felt quite threatened by emancipated women being out for their own pleasure ("having sex like a man" as SJP is quoted in the article). The backlash is pressuring women to focus on men's pleasure again, instead of their own. Be shaved. Have anal. Do FWB. Open up your relationship. If you don't try things you are vanilla. You are slut/kink shaming. Etc etc.

I despair for girls now. My teen DD told me I was old the other day because all women like choking these days. I said I bet they don't. She said she wouldn't but she's unusual 😟

bibliomania · 08/06/2022 13:41

You've got group A and group B. Group A has the vast majority of the social, economic and physical power. You introduce a new level of "anything goes" in relation to the interactions between those groups. Do you really think group B is going to enjoy the results as much as group A?

Freedom without power is a very limited gain.

On the erasing of shame, as a single parent of Irish origin who caught the tail end of the bad old days, I'm glad glad glad they're gone.

MissyCooperismyShero · 08/06/2022 14:39

The sexual revolution gave power to women (good) but took responsibility away from men (bad). Men no longer worry about contraception, stepping up as a parent, financially supporting a family - all those things fall to women. Many remain almost child like in their self-indulgence. Women can do this stuff of course, but why should they?

IloveHolby · 08/06/2022 16:11

Interesting thread, thank you all. I think I am in the yes and no camp - the sexual revolution had benefits; de-stigmatising single parent-hood, no more back street abortions, the pill has uses beyond contraception to help regulate periods and bad acne ( other contraception also has benefits beyond what it's prescribed for - I'm very happy to have had no periods for 10 years thanks to my coil!)

BUT it has given men more freedom and less responsibility, and there are differences between men and women generally regarding sexuality. Reading/watching de-trans men (natal women) talking about the impact of testosterone makes it clear why this is. I also have experience of this when I tried the Depo injection in my early 20s - it definitely did something to my testosterone levels as I got facial hair and felt very horny and quite fighty (I was very shy and usually wouldn't say Boo to a goose, although thankfully I gained confidence in my 30s and 40s.

I had loads of one night stands and short flings in my late teens and 20s in the 90s. Were they good for me? Was I doing them because I just loved sex? Not all the time, no. I had low self esteem and sometimes used men for validation. Sometimes I was hoping for a relationship and then I ended up hurt.

It felt like it was part of being a feminist then, trying to prove that we are equal, so I'd be down the pub drinking pints of lager (which I hate and never drink now). Demonstrating that women can do all the things men do, that we could have casual sex, stay up all night, have all the freedom. BUT I always had that worry that comes with being a woman, walking home with my keys clutched in my hand ready to jab them in an attackers eyes, keeping my eyes and ears on the alert for anyone walking too close. So it was a lie, we've never had the same freedom as men, and now I'm happy to celebrate the differences between us. Equality doesn't mean we are the same as men, or have to try to be, but that we should be treated equitably.

So we have gained some freedom, but not all the freedoms of men. And we still bear the brunt of the responsibility when it comes to raising children and managing the homes. I've often wondered about the impact of equality on family life - taking a Marxist stance on it women's liberation has benefited the production owners more than anyone else - before families could generally afford to live on one income, now people can barely live with both parents working. The rearing of our children is outsourced as is care of the elderly, both to underfunded services.

Sexual Liberation did not come with any education and guidance around love and relationships, what is healthy, what healthy boundaries are and how to maintain them. I think some of this is down to the collapse in religious belief too (I'm not religious now but was brought Christian) - I saw a documentary ages ago on the low rates of teenage parenthood in the Netherlands, and some of it was down to their approach to sex and relationships education, but some was also noted to be due to religious background there (Calvinist I think).

IloveHolby · 08/06/2022 16:16

Sorry - adding to my already long message! I think that we have ended up with a culture of toxic masculinity and toxic femininity but that some young people are able to have conversations with each other and with their families about this.

For those with no-one to talk to about this it leaves them confused, so I do feel that these are conversations that schools need to facilitate openly, looking at the impact of media images, porn, peer expectations, and healthy relationships.

There are lots of men who want relationships, who want to feel close emotionally it's not all about sex for all men, but some of them feel they have to put on that show of masculinity.

IloveHolby · 08/06/2022 16:43

I can't find the documentary I watched but here's an interesting link re sex education in the Netherlands

dutchreview.com/expat/education/sex-education-in-the-netherlands/

I don't know why they put the Monty Python clip in - that lesson would have been far more useful than what I had at school (we literally just covered the biology of sex along with diagrams of testes and ovaries/womb/fallopian tubes!

Although I do vaguely remember a teacher coming in with her baby for a lesson I have no idea what we covered in the lesson...

TryingToBeUnique · 11/06/2022 16:25

I’ve just finished the book. Some of it was enlightening. I am a bit appalled at how difficult things are for modern young women. I suppose I can’t blame the author for not having perfect solutions to age old problems. Her answers are: Don’t get raped. Don’t sleep with cads. Get married. Stay married if at all possible and don’t remarry until your children are grown up (I don’t think she gives an age there but that’s the general idea).
I have very little contact with the younger generation. Can anyone recommend any novels that deal with the sexual norms of the last ten years?

AllAloneInThisHouse · 11/06/2022 16:57

@IloveHolby

I haven’t heard of toxic femininity.
What do you, or anyone else reading this, consider that to be?
Just friendly, curious question.

Discovereads · 11/06/2022 17:29

I agree with @DyingForACuppa on the articles claim:
the sexual revolution has been bad for women

It completely ignores what came before the Sexual Revolution. I am old enough to have sat with my Nan and Great Aunties and listened to their life stories as young women in the 1930s. Men still expected casual sex, and rape was just as common. Men still abandoned pregnant teenage girlfriends…they were simply whisked away under duress and imprisoned in homes (often run by the church) until they had their babies and then were forced to give those babies up for adoption. Pre Sexual Revolution wasn’t this utopia of formal courtship, respectful men on bended knee waiting until the wedding night to be with their virgin brides.

And even once you were married, well marital rape didn’t exist as a crime. Your husband could rape you whenever he felt like it and society had the attitude it was your wifey duty to satisfy male desire. It was also your duty to bear as many children as “God gave you” as there was no reliable contraception. My Nan went to the doctor to try and get a “fit note” to be able to say no to my grandad when he wanted sex. She had had nine children and was physically exhausted and did not think she could bear a tenth pregnancy. The doctor lectured her on her place as a woman and refused to help her. She did have a tenth child but died when he, my uncle, was only 3, and my Great Aunt as eldest girl had to quit school and take over doing wife work at home at age 14.

My mothers life as a young woman in the 60s during the sexual revolution was far far better than what my Nans generation lived through.

So yes, the author is pretty ignorant as to just how bad it was for women before the sexual revolution.

Yes, things aren’t great now and lots of patriarchal powers have endured but to blame the sexual revolution…the women who fought for progress and equal rights…is pretty sick and twisted. We have come a long way. The fact that the fight is not over is not their fault. Overall the sexual revolution was good for women.

bibliomania · 11/06/2022 18:56

Excellent points, Discover.

IloveHolby · 11/06/2022 20:11

Hi @AllAloneInThisHouse - Toxic femininity is how I feel about pop culture portrayals of womanhood - all the pouting selfies, loads of make up, plastic surgery - like being a woman is all about how we look. Social media has really ramped things up in that respect with more focus on looks and getting ‘likes’.

IloveHolby · 11/06/2022 20:18

Yes absolutely great points @Discovereads

@TryingToBeUnique thank you for the feedback on the book - I don’t think I’ll read it then as the authors conclusions don’t sound helpful.

Thelnebriati · 11/06/2022 22:15

I don't think what's happening now is part of the sexual revolution, but a reaction to it. An attempt to regain control over women.

GCandproud · 11/06/2022 22:31

Discovereads · 11/06/2022 17:29

I agree with @DyingForACuppa on the articles claim:
the sexual revolution has been bad for women

It completely ignores what came before the Sexual Revolution. I am old enough to have sat with my Nan and Great Aunties and listened to their life stories as young women in the 1930s. Men still expected casual sex, and rape was just as common. Men still abandoned pregnant teenage girlfriends…they were simply whisked away under duress and imprisoned in homes (often run by the church) until they had their babies and then were forced to give those babies up for adoption. Pre Sexual Revolution wasn’t this utopia of formal courtship, respectful men on bended knee waiting until the wedding night to be with their virgin brides.

And even once you were married, well marital rape didn’t exist as a crime. Your husband could rape you whenever he felt like it and society had the attitude it was your wifey duty to satisfy male desire. It was also your duty to bear as many children as “God gave you” as there was no reliable contraception. My Nan went to the doctor to try and get a “fit note” to be able to say no to my grandad when he wanted sex. She had had nine children and was physically exhausted and did not think she could bear a tenth pregnancy. The doctor lectured her on her place as a woman and refused to help her. She did have a tenth child but died when he, my uncle, was only 3, and my Great Aunt as eldest girl had to quit school and take over doing wife work at home at age 14.

My mothers life as a young woman in the 60s during the sexual revolution was far far better than what my Nans generation lived through.

So yes, the author is pretty ignorant as to just how bad it was for women before the sexual revolution.

Yes, things aren’t great now and lots of patriarchal powers have endured but to blame the sexual revolution…the women who fought for progress and equal rights…is pretty sick and twisted. We have come a long way. The fact that the fight is not over is not their fault. Overall the sexual revolution was good for women.

All of this. Harrington’s article is tradwife central and she doesn’t seem to have a clue what women in countries that haven’t had a sexual revolution still experience. No thank you.

GCandproud · 11/06/2022 22:35

Sorry, Louise Perry. But I’ve seen Mary Harrington come out with some tradwife shit too.

MangyInseam · 12/06/2022 03:26

I don't think the statostics support the idea tat casual sex was just as cpmmon before the sexual revolution. The rates of STIs went way up during that period for example which suggests that there was in fact more sex.

And so did the rates of out of wedlock births. Which is at best a very mixed bag, it's good to not have kids with unmarried parents socially stigmatized personally, not having two parents in the household is the number one correlation for all kinds of social ills like poverty for mother and child, poor school performance, lilihood of going to prison, and so on. None of which are good for women or anyone else for that matter.

MangyInseam · 12/06/2022 03:32

Christ, it's not like your choices are, sexual revolution all the way, or all the worst docial practices in the opposite direction. All social change has multiple outcomes, and even with a change that is good in some ways there are always trade offs. Some of which may not be clear until later, and may be more serius than people realized.

Many traditional social arrangements also often existed because they were socially useful, and failure to recognize that means things that had important purposes may be swept away without any real attempt to mitigate. This is the danger of the assumption that all social structures are just oppressive and progress means getting rid of them. After which we'll get to the promised land.

TryingToBeUnique · 12/06/2022 06:57

The author isn’t entirely ignorant of what went before the sexual revolution. Her point is that many problems blamed on patriarchy, such as rape, are actually biological. Women are still accommodating, or being forced to accommodate, the mismatch between male and female sexual appetites in ways that harm us including (sometimes forced and almost always as a last resort) prostitution, pornography and hook up culture. Above all, women are harmed by the pretence that this mismatch (at the population level) doesn’t exist..
As a bit of an aside, I was reminded of Judith Martin’s etiquette column in the Washington Post. She was very good at unpicking the rationale behind past rules of behaviour and analysing whether they were obsolete or still useful. A large amount of etiquette eg. ‘I don’t believe we’ve been properly introduced’ was always about safety for women.

mumsys · 12/06/2022 07:00

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

JoanOgden · 12/06/2022 07:29

I think it's possible to hate the culture of porn, violent sex and objectification of women (as many, many feminists do) without taking Louise Perry's position of "women should only have sex with a man if he would be a good father to her children".

There is also a lot of eliding of history here. The sexual revolution took place in the 1960s-70s, half a century ago now. I don't think that the modern porn culture was an unavoidable consequence, and it would be more interesting to look at the intervening period to understand how it has come about, rather than blaming everything on the Sixties.