The NHS responded to my query about erasing women from their website

[pink85]

Been a lurker here for a while and saw the thread about the NHS erasing the word woman from biological women's cancers. This was the response email. What does everyone think? (also sorry if I do anything wrong, not posted here before but love the gender discussions which are always honest and fair as I believe in sex based reality and am on the side of JK)

Thank you for contacting the NHS Website service desk.
The NHS Website provides information for everyone. We aim to use language that is inclusive, respectful, and relevant to the people reading it.
We are working to improve content across the NHS website to make it clearer, easier to understand and more accessible. This includes improving the structure of the pages, writing in plain English, and improving the inclusivity of the language we use to ensure people get the correct clinical information.
As part of this work, we recently updated a number of our cancer topics. As a result of our user research, we made significant changes to how the information was originally structured.
We have not removed the word women from any of our cancer topics, we use it on the causes page when speaking about who is at risk. On topics like ovarian and cervical cancers, where we previously only mentioned "women" we now say "women, trans men, non-binary and intersex people with ovaries". This ensures anyone who could get these cancers can understand the information is relevant to them.
There are 1000s of pages of content on the website and doing this work takes time. Some cancers (such as ovarian, penile and anal cancer) have been updated already, whereas some still need to be updated (such as vulval and testicular cancer). This can lead to some differences in our content. We are working towards being clear and consistent across the website.
^You can find out more about our approach to inclusive content and writing about sex and gender here: service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-content/sex-gender-and-sexuality.^

(funny how the results on testicular cancer on the first page state men yet for cervical cancer it lists a whole load of people)

This means, then, that there is now no word for people of the female sex on those pages.

Woman' is clearly an abstract identity as it is part of the long list of other abstract identities. Not what needed to be done.

It's important for there to be terms which mean that someone is biologically male or biologically female.

This is on the penile cancer page

Anyone with a penis can get penile cancer. This includes men, trans women, non-binary people and intersex people with a penis.

and this is on the vulval cancer page

Cancer of the vulva is a rare type of cancer that affects women.

they’ve told you right there in the email some have been changed and some are still waiting to be done.

You see if they were truly sincere in what they are doing they would have done ALL of the MENS pages first. Then done a press release to explain what they were doing and that they are doing the women's bits next. THEN they would have changed the women's.

But we all know that firstly it's not being done in a sincere manner and secondly no one is complaining about the men's pages being non inclusive.

The NHS response seems reasonable to me. I have no idea how they have chosen what order to do them in, but if I were the one deciding I would start with the most common cancers.

It's not clear and it's not consistent.

Not clear - most of the population will have little-to-no idea what those terms mean.

Not consistent - why is "women" in the list at all, since in the context of gender ideology this can refer to someone with a penis? (Or is "with ovaries" meant to refer to the whole list, i.e. only those women with ovaries? Not clear.)

I find this insults everyone's intelligence and integrity, while confusing the most vulnerable. The trans and "intersex"* people supposedly being helped by this should know what screening they need, and if they're in any doubt, their doctors should tell them. Public health information shouldn't give edge cases equal billing with the main message.

It's also not inclusive, respectful or relevant to anyone who doesn't believe in gender ideology.

*Thought this term wasn't used anymore, except in LGBTQIA-etc?

Given the current split in the nation's opinions over sex and gender they could have

1. Chosen to keep things as they were. Which whilst not the preferred option for some of the population it is currently perfectly legal for their pages to stand as they were.

Or

2 they could decided that no changing is absolutely the right thing to do, but we read the room and appreciate that currently a lot more women would be upset over the change than men. So we are doing this but it would make sense to erase absolutely every single solidarity reference to just men that way we can sell it to the whinging women better.

They choose neither option, and whilst I can't 100% prove it I would bet money on the fact that more references to women have been erased or added than men. And that a lot more women ones were done before more than a few men's were changed.

Keep on complaining, It’s. What TRAs do. Today I’ve complained to BBC and Patient Access. And Im going to complain about losing women from language every time, we all should complain do they can’t say no one cares

Thank you for everyones responses so far I appreciate it

"women, trans men, non-binary and intersex people with ovaries"

But in this list women means male and female people. If it just meant female then the others wouldn't be needed. So it's not clear. It's really bloody confusing and inconsistent.

Is “intersex people with ovaries” a direct quote from the NHS? This is incorrect medical terminology and a massive kick in the teeth to people with differences in sexual development.

I understand that it is. And yes, it's a massive kick in their teeth (as adult individuals with DSD who have ovaries are women, unless they identify as something else which is already covered in the list the email from NHS gives).

I believe women without ovaries (because they have been removed) can still get ovarian cancer or peritoneal cancer which mimics it so agree this isn't clear and could be misleading about someone's ongoing risk.

So basically, you're upset because the NHS, who is there to serve the needs all of people (even if they identify in ways you personally don't like) and have updated their wording to reflect that women AND these other people need to be aware of this type of cancer? Ie .. aiming their literature at everyone they serve, not just people who look and think exactly like you?

So it still says women. But you're pissed off because it doesn't just say women when it makes no difference to you whatsoever.

How do trans women know this information is not for them?

I think the word woman = biologically female person. And I think that’s what most people think. The new NHS terminology indicates they don’t think that, which begs the question of what do they think the word “woman” means.
if they think it means “biologically female + female gender identity” then they are not being inclusive. They are excluding me and women like me. And they are taking sides on a contentious social and philosophical question, which they ought not to do.

How are they excluding you? It says women.

It might be simpler to just say 'female' and be done with it especially since this is the term that (I think) tends to be used in the medical/biological literature anyway.

I remember learning about the 'male' and 'female' reproductive systems for example.

by including all the other categories, it’s clear that they define women to mean something other than biologically female people. So what do they think women means? As I said, if they mean female plus female gender identity it does exclude me. I have no gender identity. But nor am I trans or any of the other things they list.
im just biologically female, with a personality which includes a mosaic of different traits. Like most of us.

@Badqueen you're right it makes no difference to us, because we were educated about sex and the fact that there are different parts inside us that bring with them different issues.

If people keep changing and obliterating the meaning of the very words that tell us which half of the species we are eventually the knowledge will disappear.

This is not just about the NHS it's about everything and everywhere going down this same path.

I know it seems like that could never happen, but it already is. You've got young kids being told there is no sex only gender.

The way modern algorithms seem to push people down one path of thinking so they never see the sex side of the argument.

The generation of today (apologies for the huge dumping of a set of people into one stereotype thing) don't read long text books or look online for the other side of the argument. It's tweets and Tik Tocs and suspect news sources. They are becoming unable to carry out proper critical thinking.

If we allow this to happen unchecked then where does it end?

At some point years down the line, after a few more cycles of word mangling and laws about what can and can't be said we end up with a clueless society who understands nothing and no longer have the capability or the language to do anything about it.to

That's not a society I want to live in. Especially given that it's starting already with obliterating what it means to be a woman. And yes I know on the NHS site it's the men to, but the men are capable of complaining about their erasure if they want to.

Information leaflets should be as simple and short as possible in order to get the message across. Where conditions are sex specific, the only word needed to specify which sex they pertain to is the word for that sex, ie Female of Male.

Every trans person knows they are either female or male. It isn’t an identity, it’s a sex descriptor.

The NHS are virtue signalling at best, and at worst are promoting an ideology that the vast majority of people do not subscribe to.

It’s actually quite easy to deal with the issue by including a disclaimer - hell, put it in bold caps on every page of you must - to the effect that the words woman and man used here have their ordinary biological meaning and nothing is implied or asserted with regard to an individuals personality or sense of identity.
that’s bang neutral, doesn’t take sides - which is where taxpayer funded public authorities should always aim to be.

I don’t understand why they need to prat around.

everyone knows their sex. No matter how much they may kick against it or pretend /wish it was otherwise.

if you need medical advice or help, you need very clear language, not waffle and legalese. What happened to the Plain English campaign?

I want clear, precise language used. Not ‘oh we have to include every possible iteration of what a female sexed person may think in case….. integration innit?’

If it didn't say women you might have a point. But it does. You've already used the word woman to describe yourself on this thread so by definition then, what the nhs has put on the website includes you. Because you are, and you regard yourself as a woman.

It insults peoples intelligence apart from anything else. Don’t they think trans women know they Still have male bodies and can get male cancers, same for trans men with female cancers. Nobody is so stupid that they think transition turns them biologically into the opposite sex?? If they do then they have mental health problems and should be supported accordingly. I suspect the people who actually fall into this camp are extremely rare and so it does not require a complete overhaul of a website for them.

How grotesque for women with DSD to be referred to in the way above. I won't quote it, it's horrible.