Major win for Labour Women's Declaration

[fromorbit]

Major Development Starmer has finally agreed to talk to Labour Women's Declaration and listen to their concerns after women talked to him at The Labour Women's Network Gala Dinner. If he sticks with this this means the era of No debate in Labour is totally over.

This looks to be a big win for women and owes everything to those who spent years on this and especially everyone who argued with canvassers about RespectmyX. Starmer can't have missed the pressure. Your voices were heard! You all changed the course of the second most powerful party in the UK.

See this tweet from Joan Smith earlier in the evening: twitter.com/polblonde/status/1527010428764704768

Later Details from LWD Here:
twitter.com/LabWomenDec/status/1527018832229015553

This doesn't mean Starmer or others are going to do what LWD will say or they can be trusted. Nothing can be taken for granted. What happens going forward as always relies on how strong and how loud those who back women's sex based rights in the party are. Lots of battles ahead.

What it does potentially mean is we have a chance for Open Debate at all levels of the party via leadership endorsement and it will be a game changer. Gender Crits may get a proper chance to be heard, but we will be fighting to win support. Have no doubt it would be a vicious long battle like any policy debate inside Labour. However given what LWD has achieved so far you would be foolish to think that these great women and their supporters inside and beyond the party can't pull it off. Especially as the news of Starmer simply talking to LWD may inspire mass resignations from those opposing us. Debating reality openly is not their strong point.

This is the start of a bigger struggle, but a great achievement. I know many reading this will not be ready to trust Labour again and you shouldn't be without proof.

What you should trust though is the strength of Labour women to try to make a difference in the party, it isn't the first time they have had to fight through sexist nonsense, and nothing is going to make them give up.

Saying that you won't vote Labour unless their position is exactly 100% as you want it

And in this context, that's rather like saying to women, 'ok, we'll remove all your rights, disappear you in law and create a system of systemic male supremacism in which you'll be a kind of subclass in the UK, and ok that totally sucks to be you, but what about our fabulous plans for libraries and for tax reform?'

Its all very 'apart from that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?'

I see my post at 8:03 got a bit mangled. What I meant to say was: 'Misrepresenting what we are saying is not going to win back our votes.'

I have a lot of time for Labour Women's Declaration and no wish to piss on their chips. However I'm also tired of being presented as if we're ideological purists.

In 2019 when I heard John McDonnell had agreed to talk with WPUK, I thought it was a massive breakthrough. When Labour went on to pledge in their manifesto that they would protect single sex based exemptions, I took them at their word and voted for them. Wiser heads than mine counselled that the promise was meaningless without clear definitions of 'sex' and 'women' but I did not believe my party would be so slippery.

After the election we saw senior Labour figures - some of them would-be leaders - signing a pledge denouncing WPUK as a hate group, and it became clear to me that the manifesto had been taking the piss. I consider that to be breakthtakingly cynical behaviour, especially from a party that's now trying to position itself as honest and decent.

Has it left me wary? Fuck yes. But even now, all I want from Labour is a clear reassurance that they will uphold my rights. Why on earth would I vote for a party that won't do that?

100% all of this. Many of my objections to gender ideology are out of sheer pedantic insistence on adhering to truth, facts, reality and evidence.

The suppression of rational debate and denial of simple scientific reality is enough, as far as I can see, to shift a party from pragmatic politics into the realm of faith-based groupthink.

I would guess that this is an attempt to bring back some of the women while not alienating the pro-trans mob. And maybe some of their most aggressive leaders have been warned to keep the protests down, to make this seem more successful. But someone who gets a chance for a chat with Sir Keir should ask him, "Are trans women acceptable on all-women shortlists, yes or no?" I think he'd prefer not to answer that.

someone who gets a chance for a chat with Sir Keir should ask him, "Are trans women acceptable on all-women shortlists, yes or no?" I think he'd prefer not to answer that.

I can do the answer to that, no need to bother Starmer. You give the questioner a sad and reproachful look and tell them "It's complicated". Muttering hopefully about 'dog whistles' can also be useful to boot the tricky stuff into the long grass and out of sight.

Lib Dem Councillor weighs in. Predictable

twitter.com/Alexa_Kantor/status/1527579856938184705?s=20&t=sqCM_nFKrjOuGZJivtU8WA

I'm sure everyone here has voted for a party that doesn't align 100% with their beliefs. That's quite different than saying that you now see that there is a bigger problem underlying what seems like a policy error, and that correcting the obvious error doesn't adress that.

"Labour almost certainly doesn't need our votes" - usual wishful thinking rather than an adult assessment of the position. The rising cost of living may bring some voters back to Labour but the tories have stacked the deck with boundary changes and Labour need every vote they can get. Even if - and it's still a big if - they get to be the largest party the ability to achieve anything depends on the other parties believing another election shortly afterwards wouldnt give Labour a better result.

The local election results were not great, Labour needs both to get all its past supporters out and win more. It's failing on both.

Labour almost certainly doesn't need our votes" - usual wishful thinking rather than an adult assessment of the position.

Where is the evidence that Labour/LibDems/Green/SNP are being punished electorally for their position on trans rights?

How did LibDems win in Chesham and North Shropshire if this was the case?

Why are Labour 5-6 points ahead in the polls?

Why has the SNP completely trounced Alba in all Scottish elections?

Let's do the Maths - first you have to think how many women care deeply about this issue - then you have to subtract all the ones who would vote Tory anyway - then you have to subtract all the ones who care about the issue but it's not high enough on their priorities to make them change their vote - how many do you think that leaves? Enough for Labour to cause a massive internal row and lose a load of activists?

None of this is meant to tell other people how to vote - if you're voting Conservative or spoiling your vote because of this issue that's your choice and your absolute right.

But I don't see any point in kidding yourself that large numbers of people are going to follow your example.

Pretty sure it cost Jo Swinson her seat though. 😀

@HPFA I agree you with you most voters will vote for the least worst option and can’t afford to prioritise one single issue. I also agree that it’s better to try and influence the “left/progressive” parties as LWD are doing rather than trusting in ballot-spoiling or the possibility of new GC parties.

But I think it’s wrong to think that this issue won’t damage Labour massively. It speaks to a lot of the problems they already have. It reinforces the idea they are the party for smug metropolitans and trendy students, that they use legal sophistries to hide their essential dishonesty, that they are undemocratic and despise ordinary, common sense beliefs. That they prefer to virtue-signal about imaginary oppression rather than address real problems. That they have more in common with American identity politics and individualism and the trendy progressivism of international institutions than with most parts of the UK.
It also associates them with an incredibly nasty brand of activism, and opens them up to charges of bullying within their own party. It has the potential to resonate with important parts of their base - eg some ethnic/religious minorities - and I think will drive older women in general away from them into and the arms of the Tories.

Labour really can’t afford to piss off ANY voters, the way the SNP can. This issue does matter. And if a lot of people aren’t even aware of it, the Tories and the media will make sure they are by the time of the next election.

@cocoapopfan

I don't disagree with any of that - there are good political reasons why Labour should have a better position and that seems to be what Labour Women's Declaration are aiming at.

But ultimately, - and this is what I'd be advising Keir Starmer if I was a completely neutral advisor concerned only with a Labour victory - if the only position that will satisfy "GC women" is the one being demanded by some on this thread - there aren't enough votes in that to make the almighty ructions it would cause within the party worthwhile.

What's happening in politics at the moment is we seem to be getting the formation of an anti-Tory bloc - and unless something happens to change that we ought to be getting prepared for some kind of Labour/LibDem coalition.

if the only position that will satisfy "GC women" is the one being demanded by some on this thread.
I guess I'm one of those women?
I have no issue with anyone who's chosen to stay and fight from within. Good for you and the very best of luck. But there is nothing extreme about my position. As I keep saying, literally all I'm asking for is a clear reassurance that my current rights, flimsy as they are, will be upheld, and I do sometimes get a bit tired of this being presented as if it's asking for the moon on a stick.

'literally all I'm asking for is a clear reassurance that my current rights, flimsy as they are, will be upheld, and I do sometimes get a bit tired of this being presented as if it's asking for the moon on a stick.'

Exactly why should anyone vote for a party that has wilfully chosen to misrepresent the existing law to the detriment of 50% electorate?

Yep this!! We’re asking for so so little & yet Labour apparently thinks so little of women it can’t be arsed to simply state

thst sometimes sex matters Abd in those times womens right to single sex spaces will be upheld

that’s it, that’s all we want

we’re not asking them to cross the gorge of eternal peril on a flaming pogostick

There's zero hope of Labour coming to its senses based on this interview with Stella Creasy in the Daily Telegraph: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/stella-creasy-jk-rowling-wrong-woman-can-have-penis/
She expects feminists to believe TWAW:

'“JK Rowling doesn’t support self-identification whereas I do. Of course biological sex is real – it’s just not the end of the conversation. I am somebody who would say that a trans woman is an adult human female. I would say that you and I were adult human females.

“As an old fashioned feminist, I’m still fighting the patriarchy. I’m not interested in fighting amongst ourselves. And one of the things that happens to trans women is that they are oppressed because the patriarchy goes, ‘Oh well you’re a woman, right that’s it, let’s pick you apart’. So it’s right for me to stand with my trans sisters and say: ‘Let’s fight these battles together’.”

How it has come to supposedly intelligent women Labour MPs caring so little about other women's hard won rights that they are so willing to give them away to 'men' is truly staggering to me....I don't think with this many 'batty' people in Labour/LibDem etc I can ever trust them with any issue ever again.

Stella arguing with Debbie Hayton over the above article in this thread. Hayton is the one talking sense. Stella really doesn't get it. She reminds me of the witnesses at Allison's tribunal. None so blind as those that cannot see.
twitter.com/DebbieHayton/status/1530305525568753666

HPFA, you're forgetting that the situation is changing daily. We've just had Ricky Gervais openly making fun of gender ideology and TRAs. We've had the interim Cass report and the full report is due before long. The Allison Bailey tribunal has people in the legal profession talking more openly about their opposition to gender ideology. Stonewall has been exposed for the extortion racket it is. Terfs have started boasting about being terfs and wearing t-shirts proclaiming their GC beliefs in public. Accusations of transphobia are just laughable. The spell has been broken. More and more people are speaking out in their everyday lives. I have friends in schools where teachers have quietly agreed to drop all gender-related material and talk instead only about sex and biology.

In a changing climate Labour (my party of choice) just looks more and more misogynistic and frankly stupid and embarrassing. And if I feel that way, so will thousands of other women in marginal constituencies.

Labour Women's Declaration must have their heads in their hands today. I really feel for them. Even if they manage to get some kind of statement from Starmer, the Stella Creasys will respond with with 'Ah but those words don't mean what they used to mean.'

Alba - I dont follow Scottish politics but new parties always struggle and the voter turnout in the local elections was under half the electorate. Many people decided not to vote at all.

We were talking about what Labour needs to do to get it's former voters out and to attract new voters - it's quite clearly not managing to do that even when the government has pissed off the electorate more than is usual for mid term. To quote "Labour, which came second in North Shropshire at the 2019 election, saw its share of the vote fall from 22.1% to 9.7%." I believe Labour also saw its share of the vote fall in Chesham. The Lib Dems put up female candidates for both constituencies.

Many people will vote based on what they perceive to be their economic interest. Labour is not trusted on the economy, and the Corbynites rubbishing of the party's achievements didnt help. As cocoapopfan said the TWAW party line feeds into Labour's image problem. If they cant be trusted to identify reality how they can be trusted with the economy? The Lib dems keep their trans policies quieter and part of a package of reforms. They can moderate their language going into an election far more readily than Labour can and there is more chance of getting them to realise what damage is being done to women and children than there is a mysogynist Labour Party.

This is a small c conservative country and in tough times people want strong leaders. This is making Starmer seem weak and pathetic. The tories will weaponise this.

I realise just how difficult this is for Labour - and that is why the re-education of Labour party activists has to start now and why the party needs its leader to actually lead.

@HPFA Compromise may seem like the clever political choice for Labour, but it has big dangers. Read the thread on Stella Creasey - countless women who were happy for the status quo/some kind of accommodation, now saying they think the GRA has to be repealed. The middle ground no longer really exists in this debate: on the GC side, because nobody trusts TRAs anymore, now they know that a legal fiction intended to help out a small minority, is being used against women to argue that sex does not exist and that women are nothing but “cervix-havers”.

Yes, the posters on this board are unusually informed but - see Ricky Gervais. Ignorance on the basics of this debate is increasingly confined to Labour politicians and activists I’m afraid.

Sometimes two positions are unreconcilable and that is increasingly true of sex vs gender, but Labour is refusing to acknowledge this, which is why so much of what they say is nonsensical. (“Of course women are adult females!” “Of course TWAW!”) Meanwhile, even if they are beginning to acknowledge that sex is relevant sometimes, this won’t actually do them much good. The Tories are now rowing firmly away from gender ideology, and so even if Labour move slightly, they are still positioning themselves as the party which supports all this relative to the Tories. They are actually putting themselves in the position of carrying the can for all the mistakes and scandals, even if they happened under a Tory government. That seems incredibly stupid to me.

They don't need to say they will repeal the GRA but they should shut up about reforming it. If Starmer had quietly dropped mention of it once he became leader Labour would be in a much better position now. They also need to make it plain that bullying and shutting down debate is not acceptable.

As for alienating activists, does anyone have any clue what most party members/activists really think? Locally, I know women who have quietly decided to no longer canvas in elections, even if they are still members. These were people who had busy lives, but were prepared to turn out and tramp the streets and knock on doors. But the party is oblivious, of course.

@HPFA Of course you are right that Labour may get elected despite this issue, and in that case any moves even slightly in the direction of sanity is a good thing. But Labour has a very bad track record when it comes to taking support for granted, and for overlooking "minor" issues .... remember Brexit?

@cocoapopfan

Despite all these ructions I do think Labour is working its way to a sensible position.

Anneliese Dodds is a significant voice

twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1530822452221300737

I'm also going to give something to Stella Creasey - she's arguing her position, engaging in debate and taking the flak head on. I've not seen her resorting to "bigots" or "suicide" or "very vulnerable minority". And that may also be a sign of progress.

I think you are clutching at straws...