Moderation - re the word "Cult"

[GCRich]

A cult is defined as "a person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society." eg "the series has become a bit of a cult in the UK"

Can someone please tell me why we are not allowed to refer to the trans movement as a cult on this board?

I tend to agree with some of the "disingenuous" comments. When people say "cult" here, they aren't using a mild "fashion" definition. They are using the stronger definition, and not unjustifiably in my opinion.

A new article on this very subject just published in Quillette:

Gender Ideology’s True Believers

The following excerpt in particular:

I was struck by the many people calling trans activism a cult. Sometimes, they were parents whose children were transformed seemingly overnight into mouthpieces of incomprehensible jargon and vitriol; sometimes they were detransitioners or desisters who’d perhaps been those children. Both groups have my sympathy, and I agreed with them, but it cries out for elaboration beginning with the questions: What is a cult? And does the term really apply to trans activism?

I don’t intend the term as a slur. I’m also well aware that the images it evokes—vapid smiles and glazed eyes, the guy on the street corner passing out laminated literature and intoning about doomsday—defy the living experience of the everyday person becoming attracted to a cultish group. In saying today’s trans activism bears similarities to a cult, I mean no disrespect to those people who assume that the movement simply represents trans rights, or to trans people who may not agree with the activism conducted in their name. After reading and watching countless articles and videos by many trans people, as well as detransitioners and desisters, again and again, I’ve been struck by the obvious intelligence, goodwill, articulateness, and independence of spirit that seem to characterize this disparate group.

So I use the c-word with mixed feelings, knowing it could be a huge turnoff for many people whom I’m trying to reach. I’ve decided to use it anyway. Because if I had to distill my objections to trans activism into one bite-sized morsel, it would be that it denies people the language they need to express reality. I use the word “cult” not as an insult, but because it fits.

I think it's really important to note that cults are common. Group behaviour dynamics are very human. Cultish behaviour patterns aren't just wee niche things confined to tiny corners. Many many groups have cult like behaviour, or at least share elements of them.

I don't personally think genderism is completely a cult, although there may be factions within it that perform cultish behaviour that conforms to the proper definitions.

Well, as a mother who hasn't had any contact with her young adult child for 4 years now, I know what I think of this modern cultural phenomenon.

Everything I've seen from the moment it suddenly began for my own daughter - aged 20, following a period in her life that was traumatic and upsetting for her - suggested it was an extreme ideology that shuns and pushes out anyone who questions or doesn't completely go along with it.

Most ordinary religions or movements don't require followers to cut away parts of their body or to be on harmful irreversible medical treatment for the rest of their life.

They don't encourage believers to cut their family off and live in a bubble of singular belief.

They don't require the law to change or for society to shift so that their world view becomes the only one.

@SisterWendyBuckett thinking of you and your daughter.

All - there are two meanings as far as I can see, and the "fashion" one is neither offensive nor in any way inaccurate. Perhaps it is a fashion that will disappear to the margins as quickly as it rose, maybe it will transform from fashion to long term part of society. The other meaning is absolutely clear to me as well.

I'm sorry, SisterWendy, that must be so hard.

@SisterWendyBuckett I feel for you. Thank you for posting what you did. People need to hear this.

To me 'cult' means:

1. Irrational, faith-based beliefs that are not mainstream.
2. Symbols and slogans used in place of thought.
3. An absolute intolerance of other beliefs.
4. A strong in-group/out-group mentality, including persecution of those who leave the cult.
5. Possibly also: beliefs that are ultimately harmful to members.

The difference between an oppressive religion and a cult is size and power.

With social media, the old-fashioned definition of a cult doesn't fit any more. A cult doesn't need everyone to be living in one place, with a powerful leader. It's all about blind, aggressive adherence to an irrational cause.

I think the term can be used literally or metaphorically. I think @NotTerfNorCis has a useful list of features, but every one of those features could be used on its own to describe organisations which may not be cults. Possibly even number 4.

The point is that the word "cult" is almost always used pejoratively, is used to insult and is used as a blanket condemnation. It never progresses any discussion. You can always find another word or term to explain precisely what you mean.

I have no problems with the prohibition.

It is a negative word, but what if it's accurate? It seems wrong to stop people describing what something is, especially when that thing is harmful.

I can see how sprinkled around too liberally, it just ends up being potentially abusive. Indeed, you see TRAs fling it back, talking about the "GC cult" in a dumb sort of "no, you are!" response, with no attempt to substantiate it. Flinging "the TRA cult" around isn't much better, even if we think there's substance to it.

So I can understand moderation sensitivity. But I do feel that in the past, it has seemed overly sensitive, with the word always being an "auto-delete" trigger, regardless of context.

And as the author of the Quillette piece wrote in that quote - maybe it's not necessarily helpful in many contexts. But she wants to be able to write about it as a survivor of a cult, bringing her insight. There have been quite a few others, from cults, or immigrants from authoritarian regimes, who want to call out the patterns they recognise, that many more innocent/naive people are not sensitive to.

But this thread is still standing, which is encouraging. Maybe we can talk about this without auto-deletion, if we restrain ourselves.

There are lots of words we aren’t allowed to use on here. It doesn’t mean they aren’t accurate.

People struggling with gender dysphoria have my sympathies. Adherence demanding zealots who don’t care that this damaging, regressive movement is sterilising and mutilating a generation of young people and erasing women’s and girl’s rights and identities do not.

This is an interesting article by Helena, a detransitioner:

https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/bite-model-behavior-control?s=r

"The trans movement is often described as having “cultlike qualities”, or even as outright being a cult. Ex-members of the ideology and the loved ones of people who are sucked into it report eerily similar trajectories and dynamics that reflect the intense manipulation and authoritarianism of the movement. Others, usually those who are currently devout to gender ideology, object to this description, citing the lack of centralization in a leader as evidence that “cult” and “cult-like” are not accurate descriptors, and that calling the trans community a cult hinders our ability to name “actual cults”.
However, the lack of a central charismatic leader does not automatically place the trans movement decidedly in the “not a cult” camp. Groups can exhibit manipulative and authoritarian dynamics without a central leader and can even closely resemble the dynamics within traditional cult structures. There are models we can use to analyze the behavior of groups and get a sense of how much their behavior aligns with what is understood to be cult behavior."

Here's another one (sorry for spam!) by Tree, a male detransitioner:

https://cutdowntree.substack.com/p/gender-identity-isnt-real?sd=nfs&s=r

"Shortly before I decided to detransition, I had a conversation with a trans friend about the Gender Unicorn. I was frustrated by it. I said, it doesn't make any sense! It doesn't actually represent what being trans is about at all! In some ways, the ideas it represents run completely counter to the actual goals of the trans movement!
My friend's response was that it didn't matter; it was better than the binary concept of gender believed by mainstream society. The Gender Unicorn didn't have to make sense, it just had to be simple and easy to spread. It's not an accurate representation of the ideology behind the transgender rights movement because it was never meant to be.
It's a recruiting tool."

No one has the right to go through life silencing anything they find offensive. If you call Gender Critical people a cult we'll just laugh at you because we know it's not. Gender critical ideas are grounded in material reality and biological fact.

If your feelings and beliefs are so fragile that any criticism of them must be silenced, what does that say about them?

I have been given I think at least two warnings for using the term cult/cultists. I find it odd. I have pretty much since the start (for me) seen this movement as religious. Since it isn't a religion, cult is the appropriate word to use. But since this is banned I just call it a religion now.

If you call Gender Critical people a cult we'll just laugh at you because we know it's not
Just to be clear I don't think that gender critical people are a cult. I am just demonstrating that refering to people who disagree with you as a cult isn't particularly helpful and isn't going to help you win the argument.
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refering to people who disagree with you as a cult isn't particularly helpful and isn't going to help you win the argument.

I agree. But if the people disagreeing with you do happen to be a cult, does the fact that they disagree with you give them a pass on you pointing it out?

That would rather tie your hands pointing out problems with the Scientologists.

Of course not if they actually are in one.