Pronouns - sooner than expected - help

[IamAporcupine]

I work in academia, in a medical research setting, and was quite pleased with the absence of the pronouns nonsense.

We are setting up a new large research proyect (which I will be coordinating) and have a couple of organizational meetings coming up next week. There is quite a bit of information to collect from each participating centre so we decided to create a survey for them to fill in beforehand. A young male new employee was assigned this task.

He's just sent it to me to review. There, on the first page, after 'Name' and 'Email address' is 'Pronouns'. Fuck.

I was certainly not expecting having to deal with this at work so soon, and at this level. I have filled in surveys myself where I made clear I did not believe in GI, but those were either anonymised or I did not care who read them. This is different. This will likely be me coming out as GC. I have no idea what the rest of the team thinks.

Can anyone in a similar situation help me find the best way to deal with it?
Shall I simply send it back with a 'delete this' amongst all the other changes (if there are any, I haven't even checked yet) and wait?

I will be working with this guy for the next 3-4 years. He seemed nice enough. Young and unexperienced, but keen. And kind, as I will likely find out.

I would agree that many of these suggested responses are disingenuous, and I don't think that helps anyone at all. I would just go:

(0. Ignore request)

1. "No, thank you"
2. (If pressed) "I don't specify"
3. (If pressed again) "I've never had an issue"
4. (If pressed about showing allyship) "Well, I'm happy to hear anyone else's pronoun, I myself don't specify"
5. (If pressed further on allyship) "I believe there are different perspectives on these issues and I don't feel right that we insist on everyone participating in this. Let's move on, I'm conscious of time".

IRL I've never had to go further than 1 with a hint of 4 (though it's not come up often, thankfully).

Likewise, the survey had a very easy solution about data needing to be collected only for specified purposes as per GDPR , which will often be enough to knock workplace initiatives on the head, without making disingenuous arguments to people who may have only the faintest grasp of the issues in the first place, and will not know what to make of the response.

I don't think the op is uncomfortable with trans identity

Just uncomfortable with everyone being forced to claim a single identity, being reduced to an identity

pronouns presumes a shared or objective political truth, which may exclude some research participants. I personally am also uncomfortable in pushing anyone to declare pronouns that they either do not believe in, or are not ready to share with others.

or say we can only store relevant data, this data isn’t relevant to the survey

or change it for sex if that is relevant

or a how would you like to be known box.

But that's not true is it. Most people on this thread would be happy to know what pronouns a trans person would like us to us about them. We just don't want our sex-based pronouns erased, and so have no need to announce anything we "identity" with because we don't.

Yep. Tell me yours if it is important to you but sod off expecting me the adopt any, for any reason.

To be clear. I despise gender expectations. I think they are incredibly harmful to everyone. I will not ever, for any reason whatsoever, join in with gender ideology.

To be equally clear, I also couldn't care if you identified as a moon troll. I will refer to you by whatever words and names you want me to. But don't expect me to be infallible and don't take it as any kind of deliberate offence if I forget or get it wrong.

Now, can we all just agree that sex is a biological reality, gender is a social construct and leave it there?

You don't insist that I am being mean and I won't point out the blindingly obvious.

I really have had enough if this claptrap now.

We had a young male employee want to add pronouns to our registration forms for a website (very male dominated subject matter) - I, and the 2 other C-levels just said no, we didn't want to get involved in all of that, and that was the end of it.

TBH, if someone asks for my pronouns (only happened once) I think there's a shock on my face followed by perhaps a little bit of a smirk at the ridiculousness of asking 5' tall, dumpy me, with huge boobs, whether I'm male or female. The one time I was asked I waved my hand and said 'whatever you like' - and funnily enough, they managed to guess and call me 'she' for the rest of the day.

I also work with people from all over, who I have no idea if they are male or female unless I hear their voice - and TBH, it's never been an issue, if I'm talking about them to someone else I use they/them or their name - as we are so often told, singular they/them has been in use for years, and if I'm talking about a specific person it's really not confusing. It only becomes confusing if a group is also involved, at which point I revert to using the person's name to make it clear.

Saying what pronouns one should use to refer to you isn't "forcing to claim a single identity".

If you're okay with any pronouns being used to refer to you, just say "any pronouns".

No "any pronoun" isn't acceptable
That's accepting whatever gender someone else assigns you

If pronouns are to indicate a gender identity then I will have to ask for no pronouns. Just my name

But I don't believe that any pronoun would be ok. I don't think they are something that change. Born female, I would expect to be referred to as she, her in my absence. I wouldn't expect someone to presume to apply any of the myriad genders to me. Nor would I expect there to be a discussion about it. I am what I am.

If you can't accept that then I have a name.

So say "she/her". Those are the pronouns you want people to use to refer to you, right?

Not necessarily no

If the person is meaning your sex is female and only ever uses sex based pronouns then that's fine

If the person thinks that pronouns refer to gender then no I am not happy being referred to as a she

It's what rejecting gender means. I don't believe that there is anything that unites "women" beyond biology . I don't believe that I have a gender that is common with most women but different to that of most men. I don't want any assumptions being made about me based on an assumed gender ( because I have had to fight for my place in the scientific community because of the hidden assumption that my gender would make me incompetent)

No, thank you.

As a female person whose actual name is this and who has lived for nearly half a century without ever stating my pronouns, I can assure you, this has never been a problem.

It's extremely rare to not know whether someone is a woman or a man. It's never happened to me in 40 years of living.

Disingenuous nonsense. Everyone knows the difference between pronouns as functions of language and personal pronoun statements. It's the equivalent of saying "Actually the Spanish for black IS.... so it can't be offensive."

So, what pronouns should one use to refer to you with that response? Just default to "they"?

I really don't give two hoots.

They will have to not use pronouns, just the persons name

Jane came to tea, Jane brought banana bread and I gave Jane a book I just finished reading

Or they could educate themselves as to why so many people find gender based pronouns repressive and repulsive

Your assumptions aren't facts. You don't always know whether someone is a man or a woman, even if you think you do.

Because they reflexively despise the idea of treating trans people as equals?

I will treat them as equal

Either we equally use sex based pronouns

Or I will equally respect their belief in the need for gender and they must equally respect my belief that gender is harmful

equal does not mean agreeing with them any more than I agree with anyone else

Treating someone as an equal is completely fine.

I can disagree with gender identity theory and practise in exactly the same way I disagree with Jehovah's Witnesses - I am always going to be polite, but I am equally not willing to accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour, nor mouth that belief when I don't share it.

So you base your gender identity strictly on your sex, that's fine. No one claims it has to say anything about you.

Why is anyone regarding "woman" as a gender category such a big deal to you?

No I don't base my gender identity on my sex.
do you have trouble with the word no?

As a young person i experienced what today is known as gender dismorphia, I hated my body , hated the restrictions that society placed on me because of my sex . I was also bullied because I didn't conform , just for liking maths I was a wierdo

I called myself David , cut my hair short , refused the dresses and skirts and make up. Even today I am male in many of my dreams .
it's only in the last few years that I have acquired more female friends than male ones.

I only found acceptance of my whole self - brain and body - when I gradually realised that I didn't have to have gender. Yes my body is female but I can live my life without that being a significant part of who I am

so no , no gender identity. I tried it , it didn't fit , it caused me harm

let me try the no word again. No I do not have a gender identity that matches my sex. I am no different to any other man. But I am not a man and I won't harm my body to make it look more masculine to help your narrow mind cope. Box yourself in, feel free but leave me out of it

Why is anyone regarding "woman" as a gender category such a big deal to you?

There are lots of reasons and everyone who feels this is a big deal has their own unique ones. Just one example - for many people there are big concerns around things like data recording and analysis. If things are recorded as happening to or being done by the category called 'women' but the people who those things happened to or were done by are biologically male, it skews the data. And skewed data means support and help is less tailored to the needs of those who need that support and help due to their sex. Another example, if women as a gender category includes trans women in sport, there are concerns about both safety and fairness within sport as girls and women are more likely to suffer injury (not through malice but because biological boys and men are statistically stronger due to greater muscle mass, lung capacity etc) and less likely to reach the top of their sport as they are at a biological disadvantage when it comes to contact, strength or power based sports. This isn't all about women with concerns not being kind, or making a 'big deal' out of nothing. Surely you can see there are very real, practical reasons why this is a worry for many people?