How Scottish GRA reform could impact England and Wales

[Justme56]

Information from Fair Play for Women Twitter:

For a Scottish GRC to be recognised outside of Scotland the UK Government will have to agree.

Scottish GRA reform is lowering the age to 16. This means that for the first time ever, English and Welsh schools may have to deal with teenage boys presenting their newly acquired female birth certificates to staff and demanding access to the girl's changing rooms and sports. This means that if you have daughters their rights to privacy away from the opposite sex while at school in England and Wales will be diminished by a decision in the Scottish Parliament made by MSPs you didn't vote for.

Scottish Self-ID will be open to anyone living in Scotland including those who chose to attend one of the fifteen universities in Scotland. This could mean that any child could start a university in Scotland in the Autumn and by Easter come home with a new birth certificate.

Trans groups including Stonewall know Scottish reforms will reach across the UK and are pushing to make it happen. Talks between the Scottish Government and the UK Government have already started.

Liz Truss rejected self ID saying proper 'checks and balances' are needed. Nothing has changed so if you have any concerns about this situation tell her, Nadhim Zahawi and/or your local MP. You can also highlight your concerns to the Scottish government via a short survey (closing date 17th May).

This plus further information can be found on Twitter although I guess it is also available on their website.

Exactly OldCrone - I think the SNP want the fight with Westminster/to set the precedent

This means that for the first time ever, English and Welsh schools may have to deal with teenage boys presenting their newly acquired female birth certificates to staff and demanding access to the girl's changing rooms and sports.

I thought it was made clear recently that changing rooms and sports could be based on actual sex so that even the ‘legal fiction’ of a GRC wouldn’t count. Is this not the case after all?

I thought it was made clear recently that changing rooms and sports could be based on actual sex so that even the ‘legal fiction’ of a GRC wouldn’t count. Is this not the case after all?

It's never been clear how access to single sex spaces could be based on actual sex when someone has a birth certificate to say they're the opposite sex. If someone who looks like a boy says he's a girl and has a birth certificate which says he's a girl, how do you prove he's not a girl in order to stop him accessing the female changing rooms?

The whole point of a GRC (and the falsification of their birth certificate) is to make someone legally the opposite sex so that they are (in legal terms) indistinguishable from someone who is that sex.

I thought it was made clear recently that changing rooms and sports could be based on actual sex so that even the ‘legal fiction’ of a GRC wouldn’t count. Is this not the case after all?

There's a report that the EHRC is reviewing the statutory codes. Thread:

Report that EHRC's statutory codes of practice are under review
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4539949-report-that-ehrcs-statutory-codes-of-practice-are-under-revieww_

And there are two threads on the fact that schools guidance may be, or is, apparent imminent. Though the second deals more with what teachers would do in the moment. And it’s not dealing with Scotland:

Miriam Cates and Caroline Johnson ask Nadhim Zahawi about presenting adult ideas to children, and how girls can be supported to continue with sport in their teen years
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4534324-miriam-cates-and-caroline-johnson-ask-nadhim-zahawi-about-presenting-adult-ideas-to-children-and-how-girls-can-be-supported-to-continue-with-sport-in-their-teen-yearss_

Teachers must tell parents if their child comes out as transgender, says Nadhim Zahawi
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4534751-teachers-must-tell-parents-if-their-child-comes-out-as-transgender-says-nadhim-zahawii_

There was a thread on here about six weeks ago when the Equalities commission report had come out.

I asked this question about actual sex being allowed, to the exclusion of GRC version of sex, in relation to sex based spaces.

Some people with possibly legal minds seemed to say sex based spaces would really mean sex based.

Unfortunately I don’t think I can find the thread now the past thread system has changed.

How unclear it all seems.

It's not democratic.

If Scotland passes a self-ID law, then one of two things have to happen.

Either: A GRC obtained under the Scottish law is a 'Scottish GRC' rather than a UK GRC, and is treated in the same way as a GRC (or equivalent) obtained outside the UK (i.e. not recognised in the rest of the UK), meaning that those born outside Scotland wouldn't be able to change their birth certificates. This would of course also apply to those who would be eligible for a GRC under the present system if they obtain their GRC in Scotland under self-ID.

Or: The UK Parliament has to have a proper debate and vote about whether to grant falsified birth certificates in England, Wales and Northern Ireland on the basis of a self-ID GRC obtained in Scotland.

I don't know whether the power to decide who is eligible for a falsified birth certificate is a devolved power, or if it is a reserved power for the UK parliament. Does the Scottish parliament have the authority to decide this even for Scotland? If it's not a devolved power then the decision to allow falsification of Scottish birth certificates on the basis of self-ID would also be in the hands of the UK parliament.

Self-ID for the whole of the UK through the back door using a law passed in Scotland in which the rest of the UK has no say is not democratic.

Bumping this. There are lots of wider impacts attached if Scotland lawmakers undermine England and Wales with this action. If your MP is TWAW, it'll be worth majoring on the unfairness of this, and presumed potential for the Scottish Parliament to do it in other areas, surely something unacceptable to your MP who's accountable to his/her local electorate etc etc

This is just so disturbing. 16 years old is no age at all.

The GRA is fundamentally offensive to Trans people. It is forcing people to pretend to change sex (and adopt stereotypes, which many do not want to do and find offensive) in order to declare a gender. There are over 70 genders including non-binary (reference Medicinenet.com “What are the other 72 Genders”). A choice of two genders does not meet Trans people’s needs.

The Scottish Government should write a clear list of where “sex” is relevant and where “gender” is relevant and amend all other Legislation and Policies to correct the terminology. It can then issue gender certificates to all who need them, offering the range of genders that exist.

Here are the 72 genders Bitesize from the site Bitesized referenced 12/05/2022 02:12

www.medicinenet.com/what_are_the_72_other_genders/article.htm

It is interesting you say the GRA is offensive to trans gender people, Bitesized. I hadn’t heard that before.

re: all those 72 genders, isn’t it like trying to describe every shade of, say, blue? And even then there could be more. And all those shades are made by the additions of other colours.

To me in the end there is an infinite variety in what makes up any human’s sense of self.

There is a lot of focus on AB's case so there's a chance this will get missed. Transgender Trend has a guide to responding:

www.transgendertrend.com/take-action-scotland-gra-reform-bill/

Fair Play For Women have one too:

fairplayforwomen.com/dont-let-sex-self-id-through-scottish-backdoor/

Sex Matters has one, with MBM links:

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/self-id-scotland/
murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2022/04/27/how-to-submit-evidence-on-the-gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill/

Deadline is Monday 16 May

Thank you for the deadline reminder.

When I wrote that, it had nice spacing! Not me, it's the site. Honest

If writing to your MP, other things you could say...

The consultation does not define “ordinarily resident” so anyone else aged 16 and over from England or Wales will be able to stay in Scotland for a length of time as yet unspecified and get a GRC. That GRC will have to apply in those countries, where the rules otherwise would not permit one.

This is not democratic. In what other areas of law would you be happy for Scottish Parliament to make law for England and Wales?

...you could also flag a worry with your MP that it would seem like views have been designed out of the consultation, and quote this:

"The Committee will not, as part of its scrutiny, address or explore issues which are outwith the scope of the Bill as outlined above. Submissions which contain offensive language, do not comply with GDPR requirements or are not relevant to the Committee’s scrutiny will not be published."

Ask your MP how the impact on UK society will be considered. Ask if he or she is happy with a consultation that has no definition of what will be regarded “offensive”. Ask if they are worried that this means that anything could be removed from the responses.

Ask your MP what their understanding of how to comply with GDPR requirements is - because those are also not set out (!). Do they include quoting MPs from Hansard? Or quoting cases that have been reported in the press?

If we are forbidden from talking about certain prison rape cases as an example of the real danger for women and children that will follow from this proposal, then how can we know that? Does your MP consider that to be a fair way of consulting with the public?

...and you could ask your MP if they think that lowering the age for transition when more is becoming known about the negative impacts of transitioning in teen years is responsible. Or do they think it fits with the emerging global developments?

Here are some global developments they might want to know about:

www.svtplay.se/video/33358590/uppdrag-granskning/mission-investigate-trans-children-avsnitt-1
genspect.org/breaking-sweden-drastically-changes-protocol-prioritizes-psychotherapy/
segm.org/France-cautions-regarding-puberty-blockers-and-cross-sex-hormones-for-youth
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sajid-javid-inquiry-into-gender-treatment-for-children-wc3r3d9sn

Bump!

Train is hurtling down the track... bump

This contains a lot of links to the international picture that Scotland will be going against if it proceeds with self-ID for minors:

quillette.com/2022/05/13/joe-bidens-faulty-gender-diktat/

It may be useful for your replies or letters

Sunday bump.

Ditto. The deadline is tomorrow so it's important that this thread gets seen.

Thanks for the reminder - have completed it now.

as the Scottish mother of a young daughter this is absolutely frightening.

Up again

Another bump

IANAL, but my understanding is that section 3 of the Equality Act only permits providers to restrict access to services/facilities to single-sex if they choose to - it doesn't require them to. However, if they do insist on single-sex provision as a "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" they can lawfully exclude the holders of a GRC from accessing services/facilities that don't match their biological sex.

I'm very unsure about the position in schools, though. Presumably they can decide to enact their section 3 exemption, which they can enforce even if a pupil obtains a (Scottish) GRC? And if the school chooses not to enact the single-sex exemption the GRC makes no difference anyway?

I'm very happy to be corrected if I've misrepresented the law.