I guess I never got the memo…

CindyLouWho1 · 2022-05-03T17:16:33+00:00

When did everybody learn and accept the dogma regarding trans issues? I just had my first real-world discussion about transgenderism. Two transwomen (late teens) passed us on the street wearing tiny dresses and roller skates. A friend referred to them as lesbians (as part of a conversation about her partner’s views on lesbians). I said I think they’re actually transwomen. A male acquaintance from China interrupted to say: Why does their sex matter? They’re trans, respect it. On the one hand I’m pleased that he is so accepting of difference. But on the other, why are we not even allowed to refer to their biological sex? We were not being in any way derogatory or disrespectful. I personally couldn’t care less one way or another. But I found it strange, this idea that a person’s sex is irrelevant and should never even be mentioned when describing them. When even a guy from a remote village in communist China is saying it, I feel suddenly very out of the loop and backwards. But I don’t think I am in the wrong here in insisting that sex does matter.

TheWeeDonkey · 03/05/2022 18:38

If sex is irrelevant why did your friend refer to them as lesbians? That makes no logical sense whatsoever.

dementedpixie · 03/05/2022 18:40

How can a transwoman be a lesbian?
If they are biological men who fancy women then aren't they heterosexual men wearing dresses?

IamAporcupine · 03/05/2022 18:51

A male acquaintance from China interrupted to say: Why does their sex matter? They’re trans, respect it

Surely, if he refers to them as trans, he can tell their sex, so it does matter..?

MyJobisNotOuting · 03/05/2022 19:01

I am lost. Were they male or female?

Original poster

CindyLouWho1 · 03/05/2022 19:07

They were men. My friend thought they were girls at first glance and therefore lesbians. (They were obviously a couple).

OP posts:

Crouton19 · 03/05/2022 19:12

They could also have just been men in dresses, with no gender identity. Clothes are just clothes after all. How could your colleague tell they were trans just by looking?

TotalRhubarb · 03/05/2022 19:14

My head’s spinning like a whirling dervish from the description in your OP. I can’t work out which way is up these days.

Baffled if I know quite why it is apparently now so verboten to reference biological sex. What’s to be ashamed of?

I don’t get it, and the thought of getting my head around it feels exhausting. When I was young, we didn’t expect, as an individual, to have our thoughts, feelings and preferences front and centre of everyone else’s minds. I think it would have been seen as epically self-absorbed, if anyone had tried it on.

I’m not quite sure how, when and why it changed. I think a lot of it happened when I was in the Groundhog Days of baby and toddler rearing and so it passed me by at the time and now it’s hard to fill in the back story.

I feel old, but I’m only mid-forties.

tabbycatstripy · 03/05/2022 19:15

I don’t know. I want to say to these people, hold on, when did you discover that males could turn into females? What made you realise that biological sex was (depending) a spectrum, or not relevant to whether someone is a man or a woman? Because as far as I’m concerned, this is just something people started to say like we had always known it, and I’ve never known it. I do know other things.

Helleofabore · 03/05/2022 19:20

Crouton19 · 03/05/2022 19:12

They could also have just been men in dresses, with no gender identity. Clothes are just clothes after all. How could your colleague tell they were trans just by looking?

Yes. This. How could he tell without asking? That is very presumptuous and phobic of him.

dementedpixie · 03/05/2022 19:22

So 2 men in dresses?
How can they be lesbians if they aren't women attracted to other women?

Original poster

CindyLouWho1 · 03/05/2022 19:26

@TotalRhubarb @tabbycatstripy Exactly! Everyone talks like total unquestioning acceptance that TWAW is so natural and right oobvious in a “we have always been at war with eurasia” kind of way. I must have missed it somehow.

OP posts:

PerkyBlinder · 04/05/2022 01:12

CindyLouWho1 · 03/05/2022 19:26

@TotalRhubarb @tabbycatstripy Exactly! Everyone talks like total unquestioning acceptance that TWAW is so natural and right oobvious in a “we have always been at war with eurasia” kind of way. I must have missed it somehow.

i totally get the ‘we have always been at war with Eurasia’ feeling. Its exactly that! And the cognitive dissonance and double think in real life and then also thinking. This can’t really be happening can it? Why don’t other people notice what is happening?

EmzyEmz · 15/03/2023 11:58

To be honest OP, it sounds like a fuss over nothing. You made your point , your friend made his, what I find utterly bizarre in this whole cancel culture debate is everyone cries about being silenced while freely blabbing their views all over social media and in person. The fact you expressed your view to your friend and you've then come here to reiterate it means you are allowed to say it. The thing with freedom of speech is you can say what you want, but then don't get upset if someone responds , you can't have it both ways

HereForTheFreeLunch · 15/03/2023 14:11

That's you told, OP. On a zombie thread, only a year later.

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 15/03/2023 14:55

I'm sorry it's a zombie thread because I would have been interested in a take on why sex doesn't matter in any more in China, where the selective abortion of female foetuses has led to the most skewed sex ratio in the world. How does genderism work in that society - or in other countries where females are killed off before birth?

PorcelinaV · 15/03/2023 20:18

EmzyEmz · 15/03/2023 11:58

To be honest OP, it sounds like a fuss over nothing. You made your point , your friend made his, what I find utterly bizarre in this whole cancel culture debate is everyone cries about being silenced while freely blabbing their views all over social media and in person. The fact you expressed your view to your friend and you've then come here to reiterate it means you are allowed to say it. The thing with freedom of speech is you can say what you want, but then don't get upset if someone responds , you can't have it both ways

Not everyone feels they can, "freely express their views", or not if it isn't anonymous.

Also we recently had a story about people needing to pay a fee to hold a meeting, (because of the potential bad behaviour of the other side), and then a councillor wanting to ban future meetings. So yeah, there are real "free speech" issues in play.

Also, while people are free to respond, if it's just throwing insults and even threats of violence, then again it's a legitimate issue to be complaining about. People that bully should be called out for it.

Oh, and you can't necessarily "freely" speak on social media. I got banned for arguing something like trans ideology was "unprovable". That's now "hate speech" even though I said nothing about hating anyone. It's a private company, but bias on the major platforms is still a legitimate free speech issue.

ILikeDungs · 16/03/2023 18:22

Why did EmzyEmz revive a thread from April of 2022? To say not much at all?

OP asks why are we not even allowed to refer to their biological sex? and E's response is everyone cries about being silenced while freely blabbing their views all over social media and in person and I have to wonder why E feels E must shame the OP in this way and revive a year old thread? I mean, WTF?

And OP-- it is not total acceptance. Lots of very reasonable people think Trans is something we made up. And that's ok, right until the rights of women are in danger. Then we have to be allowed to refer to their biological sex, as you said, OP.

Zix · 16/03/2023 18:30

Isn’t it weird how you never see a transwoman in jeans, baggy fleece top, and no make up.

FiveNineFive · 16/03/2023 18:40

Zix · 16/03/2023 18:30

Isn’t it weird how you never see a transwoman in jeans, baggy fleece top, and no make up.

I know several that dress like this.

wasteoffunds · 17/03/2023 00:03

I didn't get the memo either and sex does matter.
sex-matters.org/
I have read all the recent books (Joyce, Stock etc) and am still slightly at a loss as to how fast 'gender identity ideology' has infiltrated western democratic society. Only the UK seems to be resisting at all and somewhat belatedly.
It seems to be multi-stranded and yet I still cannot believe how many intelligent people have been willing to just nod along and allow all our democratic institutions to be captured to some significant extent.

wasteoffunds · 17/03/2023 00:06

One strand is likely that people need sth to believe in and the decline of organised religion has allowed 'gender identity ideology' and 'identity politics' to fulfil that need.
Even though I am an atheist, I would personally rather be dealing with and tolerating organised religion than identity politics which simply divides people negatively.

DameMaud · 17/03/2023 00:13

wasteoffunds · 17/03/2023 00:03

I didn't get the memo either and sex does matter.
sex-matters.org/
I have read all the recent books (Joyce, Stock etc) and am still slightly at a loss as to how fast 'gender identity ideology' has infiltrated western democratic society. Only the UK seems to be resisting at all and somewhat belatedly.
It seems to be multi-stranded and yet I still cannot believe how many intelligent people have been willing to just nod along and allow all our democratic institutions to be captured to some significant extent.

It's utterly mind-blowing wasteoffunds isn't it? And very destabilising too I find.
It's like when you thought you knew someone really well and trusted them, and they do something shocking that suddenly makes them feel like a stranger to you. But on a mass scale.

Hepwo · 17/03/2023 00:19

It's such a great opportunity for mansplainers.

Nationality is no restraint on a classic bit of mansplaining.

Men explain things they don't understand to people that do.

You aren't wrong, he is.

TomeTome · 17/03/2023 00:23

Where I live we never see scantily clad transwomen roller skating and obviously a couple. We just get cows or sheep…

RufustheSpeculatingreindeer · 17/03/2023 08:21

DeanVolecapeAKAelderberry · 15/03/2023 14:55

I'm sorry it's a zombie thread because I would have been interested in a take on why sex doesn't matter in any more in China, where the selective abortion of female foetuses has led to the most skewed sex ratio in the world. How does genderism work in that society - or in other countries where females are killed off before birth?

Yes that would have been interesting

maybe emzy has some views on that

i doubt it….but i like to be optimistic