Not using they/them pronouns

[Belafonte]

Our dd19 is gay. She is not a very happy girl. She lurched from one drama to the next and is surrounded by friends who encourage this. Recent events include declaring she has a particular MH condition (she does not and has since been told by gp and specialist), cutting her long hair into a buzz cut and waking up with a hangover to declare she’d been spiked. Plus other stuff.

The latest - and we have seen this coming for a while - is to say she is NB and ask for they/them pronouns. She has announced this on social media to an absolute chorus of stunning/brave congratulations but has not told us yet officially.

Initially I thought we should give her announcement as little attention as possible but am now thinking we may actually say, no, we love you but we will not be doing that, and here are the reasons why.

The reasons we would give are -

1. you are asking us to lie. We know you are a girl. We do not want to have to pretend that you are not.
2. we (as she knows) believe the ideology that pronouns are an extension of to be very harmful to women, children and gay people.
3. we especially do not want to ask her younger siblings to go along with this as we have brought them up to believe that you should be kind to everyone but that people can’t change sex and that there are two sexes.
4. we think non binary is a deeply regressive concept as it serves to entrench sexist stereotypes rather than expand the boundaries of make and female - why not just be a girl with a buzz cut?

We have enough faith in the strength of our relationship with her that she will accept what we have to say.

Would be good to hear other thoughts. Any non constructive posts from the monitors/TRAs calling me a bigot will be ignored.

Your daughter sounds like she has problems. Instead of ignoring everything, you could perhaps sit down with her and get to the bottom of why she feels she has to behave this way to receive attention from other people.

FWIW, my own mum thought all of my behaviour as a teen was 'acting up'. In reality, I am autistic. My mum was also likely autistic but never diagnosed because she didn't believe in it. Neither of us had the capacity to have a meaningful conversation about anything in my life without it resorting to an argument.

All of this behaviour doesn't just appear from nowhere IME.

I told my daughter I would not use they/them for her. Eventually she got over the whole thing and now has moved on to other "issues".

My reasoning, a) I was not willing to lie, b) I think it's sexist, c) it's not appropriate to try and control other people's speech (she really didn't and still doesn't understand this one.)

But above all, my reason is I think it's actually quite bad for young people to give in to this. And my real anger is directed at all these people who should know better doing it and undermining these kids.

I guess it depends whether sticking to your guns is more important than your daughter's comfort to you. If it's the first then crack on but remember she'll be choosing your nursing home ...

Daughter? She? Oh dear, @KylieKoKo how did you forget to use they/them pronouns for this non-binary offspring?

She's not my offspring so presumably doesn't care about my views. If she was I would care enough to change the way I spoke ..

It's not about disagreeing with the sentiment it's about what I'd do for my child. Sometimes other things are more important than being right.

@Belafonte I don't have a child so my experience around this issue is from a different perspective. My partner (we are a married f/f couple) prefers to use non binary pronouns, but is also okay with female pronouns in various settings (eg from our parents' generation, and with professionals like NHS staff). She doesn't try to coerce speech. I normally refer to her online using female pronouns because I don't want any unclarity over us being a lesbian couple, but if I am referring to her in her presence (just the two of us there), I code switch and use they/them. I also use they/them with our millennial and Gen Z friends.

I have some similar reservations to you about non binary pronouns in general, however in my ordinary day to day adult life, my choice is to respect people's preferred pronouns. (I completely accept this is not the standard view on this board.) With my partner, it's part of a longstanding struggle with gender; she doesn't deny the reality of sex and sex based oppression, but it's hard for her in ways that are not my business to go into. I don't know if she will always want to use they/them or if that might change. I love her and want her to be happy; I would do more difficult things than this for her. (I am seriously unwell: she does much harder things for me.)

However, I think the role of a parent with an immature person for whom you still have responsibility must feel very different. I think it is possible to use pronouns you're not totally on board with, just out of love. But what's right in the context of a couple may not be for a parent.

I'm not trans, but I would say I don't mine they/them pronouns, or she/her, but really wouldn't want he/him as I'm not a man.

Nothing to do with non-binary though. You don't have to be trans to not mind being they/them

‘I guess it depends whether sticking to your guns is more important than your daughter's comfort to you. If it's the first then crack on but remember she'll be choosing your nursing home ...’

Right, so we should all think about that rather than what’s actually best for our children? Nobody here is saying ‘Fuck the kids, I’ll say what I want.’ They (including me) believe gender ideology harms many young people, and that’s why we are reluctant or refusing to adopt its ‘rules’.

@KylieKoKo so you don't really care. OK, that's what I thought.

I think you risk irrevocably damaging your relationship with your child if you don't accept who they are.

Who she is is their daughter. Non-binary is made up. At most it's a way of describing a set of views or a personality trait. No other sets of views or personality traits require the rest of the world to change the language they use to refer to a person, so why should this one? Their daughter will still be their daughter when she's done with her latest self-reinvention and moved onto the next thing.

I think we’re about to find out we have been riding the end wave of a raging social fad. The twenty year olds who shaved their heads and called themselves ‘they/them’ will generally stop it. Some of them will have more to regret than irritating their family members, but most won’t have damaged themselves and will be fine.

Non-intuitive pronouns are ableist.

Why does you holding that view mean that you have to (at best) hassle and inconvenience others?

I can't remember where it was discussed but the latest discussion between Helen Joyce and Stephanie Davies-Arai discusses finer points around why pronouns aren't just polite.

As Cass says, it's not a neutral act.

Yes!

Interview here

m.youtube.com/watch?v=G7Rc19NYz84

"Ok darling that's nice" and don't engage.

Just be normal parents. Don't mention it.

She's looking for a reaction. That is her currency by the sound of it .

Sounds like a great response OP 👏

So your 19 yo DD is “not a very happy girl”
What is the big deal about being gay and having a buzz cut? How is that “lurching from one drama to another” Do you not believe she is gay or prefers short hair? How do you know she wasn’t spiked? You can’t possibly know unless you had her blood tested. Apparently there has been “other stuff” but your post drips with contempt for your daughter and now she’s decided she is nonbinary you seem almost overjoyed to have another opportunity to invalidate her and make her even more unhappy. It’s just plain rude to not use they/them for nonbinary people. And yet you won’t be extending common courtesy to even your own daughter!

Your reasons are all hyperbole, she’s not asking you to lie, she’s asking you to respect her beliefs on identity by using the correct pronouns. She’s not said she’s not of the female sex, so she’s not pretending she is not a girl- how can she be when she’s come out as a gay woman? You appear to not even understand what nonbinary even is. Nonbinary people don’t conform to either the female or male gender sexist stereotypes, so it’s not regressive but a progressive concept. You are the one confusing sex with gender….all through your post. And it’s obvious you just don’t want her contaminating her younger siblings with her beliefs…beliefs that are protected in law as much as your beliefs are.

I think your relationship with your DD is not as strong as you think. Your proposed course of action will alienate you from her. And for what? Is this realky what you want? You can be GC all you want, but your DD isn’t and I think you should be more accepting of her in all honesty.

German enbys haven't invented artificial pronouns, no. Funnily enough, what they want done is what folks on here will do to avoid calling a male "she", i.e. simply using a person's name over and over again in place of a pronoun.

There's a whole other debate though, not around pronouns but around the proper use of gendered nouns rather than insisting on a generic masculine that in practice quite often ends up referring to biological makes instead. This was originally a feminist battle but it's only had real traction recently since it's now - surprise surprise- being pushed by men. So rather than using, say "Kunden" (customers) for everybody feminists wanted Kunden und Kundinnen, sometimes abbreviated as KundInnen. Queen theorists don't like the "internal I" though (supposedly discriminates against third genders). So publications are now littered with Kund*innen instead, much to the dismay of people who rely on Braiile.

Discovereads - not even engaging with you or your post, go and look for a fight elsewhere.

Thanks everyone else. Really great to have your supportive suggestions.

I’m not looking for a fight, I’m telling you my opinion that you are making a terrible parenting mistake which risks an estranged daughter. You may say you teach your children to “be kind” but there isn’t a shred of kindness in the way you talk about your daughter or how you propose to treat her in regards to her nonbinary identity.

My daughter is they/them with her fiancé, I ignore it.
It pisses me off mightily when he uses ‘they’ and I can hear his intake of breath when I use ‘she’. We are civil but I do wonder how things will spool out in time.
They are talking about starting a family. English grammar development for the little one will involve some interesting chat.

Should have said, daughter went through a shaven haired - lesbian - trans - BPD phase too. She’s since been diagnosed with autism and at 22 is in a much better place generally.