Transgender women advised to call 999 if asked to leave women-only lavatories

[ChristinaXYZ]

"Transgender women should call 999 if they feel unsafe through a request to leave a women-only lavatory, Britain’s largest child transgender charity has said.

The advice from Mermaids comes amid lingering confusion over the long-awaited new guidance from the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC), the watchdog, for providers of single-sex spaces such as refuges, changing rooms and hospital wards.

The EHRC ruled last month that trans women, who are born as males, can be excluded from female-only spaces if there is a legitimate reason such as protecting privacy and dignity...

...But Mermaids has become the latest lobby group to issue its own guidance in response, saying it is “not happy” with the regulator’s approach “because we feel it is not inclusive enough of trans people”.

In its helpsheet, titled “single-sex spaces: know your rights”, the influential young people’s trans charity lists a series of tips for “what to do if someone asks you to leave a facility”.

The first tip, branded “grossly irresponsible” by lawyers, stated: “If you are at risk of harm, try and get somewhere safe and call someone you trust, or the emergency services if you feel comfortable in doing so on 999.”

It also recommends that gender-dysphoric youths “ask the facility/your school for a copy of its trans inclusion policy” and “ask the facility/your school for its reasons for your removal, in writing”.

Trans people are also urged to direct the school or venue to Mermaids phone lines and “take notes”. The charity stresses that the EHRC’s guidance “is not the law and cannot be enforced” and that “you still have the right to access the services and facilities you did before the guidance was published”.

Leading lawyers have said it shows how venues such as schools, gyms and hospitals are caught in a war of words between activists and regulators, with little clarity on how to act....

read more

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/30/transgender-women-advised-call-999-asked-leave-women-only-lavatories/

The law hasn't changed. Services could always exclude men including transwomen. So this thread is still relevant. The only difference is that the EHRC has reiterated their guidance and given more examples.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3175666-Want-to-know-why-women-are-livid-trans-thread?reply=115172646

Thank you Dorothea3!

Very short post - DS and I use the disabled now.

I’m skeptical of mermaids, my DS once wanted to be a girl called Chloe. Equally sometimes he wants to be a seahorse or a dragon. He is a child.

The advice about calling the emergency services if threatened is fair enough. The rest is very legal heavy, they’re expecting children to act as activists to push through an agenda they probably don’t even understand the ramifications of.

Thanks for info that’s helpful and makes sense

I don’t feel this is correct from Mermaids if the space is single sex due to this decision

‘This is guidance, rather than law and is not enforceable by outside parties. You can continue to use the spaces you always have done without issue’

mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/our-analysis-on-the-ehrcs-single-sex-spaces-guidance/

There may be designated by law single sex spaces where this doesn’t apply (if I’ve interpreted it all correctly)

It would only be in very one-off circumstances that it would make sense to call 999 if feeling "threatened". If someone in a women's toilet asks you to leave, and you feel threatened (by which I mean at real physical risk - unlikely in this case, as a woman will nearly certainly be weaker than the transwoman), then you would leave rather than call 999, surely? If you still felt "threatened" you would leave the area, go into a shop, etc etc. Women often feel threatened by (much stronger) men in this way, but how often do they call 999? For a start, it would take a police car some time to arrive.
Isn't this an attempt to disrupt the normal running of the police - so I suppose you could call it a form of civil protest/disruption to achieve TA aims?

Well considering that ringing 999 to say there's an intruder in your house, or you're on the ground with a broken hip, or a loved one is having a stroke does not guarantee blues and twos arriving 30 seconds later - possibly 2 plus hours later, although an elderly man beaten up in my area by a mugger and left on the ground bleeding still hasn't yet seen a police officer some days later - I don't think 'a female person just said no, this is a single sex space' is going to get much of a response. And it will be the word of one person against another, and considering how few evidenced full blown rapes end in any kind of justice this is no likely to

But then female people have said this for years. When they said 'we feel unsafe with any male able to walk into this space' they were told:

• Until you've actually been harmed, you have nothing to moan about
• After you've been harmed you can always call the police and use the justice system. Good luck with that!

So unless the police provide an entirely different level of service to TQ+ people this is going to be a bit of a non starter. And that's before the bottom line that female people are allowed to have boundaries, and not predicate their 'no' on whether or not a male person agrees, and the EHRC has confirmed: some spaces may be single sex.

@Dorothea3

I think that’s taking it too far, don’t at all think it’s disruption police to achieve TA aims.

Remember these are CHILDREN we are talking about with Mermaids or did I get this wrong? It is important they feel safe and know they can reach for help if somebody is abusive or threatening towards them. All the legal mumbo jumbo, record what they say etc - that is to achieve TA aims.

I think Mermaid reaches beyond children. Regardless, it is terrible advice to tell people to call 999. Actually, looking at the exact words used by Mermaid, they tell people to call 999 once they are safe. Surely 999 is there for people who need urgent help because they're currently in danger? If a transgirl went into a female toilet and a gang of aggressive women chased them out and had them surrounded, then yes, calling 999 might make sense, though it would be likely to take too long for help to arrive if the gang of women were intent on doing the transgirl harm. My worry is that 999 is under a lot of pressure already, and should be reserved for people who are in current danger, and where using 999 can actually improve their situation. I also think that Mermaids are encouraging people to use this when they neither are nor have been in physical danger.

I'm also unsure of why you'd call 999 when you're safe. I'm sure it's time wasting to call the emergency services to do that.

The police used to crack down on 999 time wasters:

999 'time wasters': Where do emergency services draw the line? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-28562807

The bottom of the Mermaids page called "know your rights!" which sounds like it's about legal matters ie your rights, in fact says:

"Please note this help sheet does not constitute legal advice."

Mermaids latest. Replies are limited:

twitter.com/Mermaids_Gender/status/1521429530887528450

We stand by our helpsheet on the rights of trans people in single-sex spaces, which simply confirms that if a person feels at risk of harm then they could seek support to ensure their safety.
This could include contacting the emergency services if they feel it necessary and are comfortable in doing so.
This guidance is standard for any member of society and is seemingly being criticised because it has been set out for trans people.
All people should be safe when accessing services and facilities, regardless of whether they are trans or not. Access to safety must not be disrupted by irrational fear.

An irrational fear of males in female spaces. Yeah okay. So every woman who has when out alone ever felt endangerd by a man following them or attempting to strike up a conversation, myself included, was just being irrational. Clearly what we should have done is thought, this obviously male person could actually be a woman in the wrong body and I am just being mean by feeling threatened by their action. I should just let the situation play out for fear of causing offense.
It is sickening that after being told our whole lives to not put ourselves in dangerous situations, groups like Meremaids and telling us to shut up and accept that this is the way things are now.

What a waste of police resources.

Considering the police wouldn't come out when a male housemate in a shared house bolted the door and refused to let dd and her other housemate in the house at midnight and they also refused to come out when she was barricaded in her room and he was banging on the bedroom the door and shouting trying to get in I don't hold out much hope.

Of course everyone should feel safe in all spaces. But the advice they have issued is akin to someone being ejected from for example a gig they haven't paid entry for or anywhere they are not entitled to be.

Access to safety must not be disrupted by irrational fear.

Oh fuck off with that disingenuous, wholly disrespectful batshit.

Females are human too. They are not a subordinate species on the planet to service trans people. Get the fuck over it before you've managed to destroy any lingering shred of patience remaining.

The police wont even come out if your home has been robbed- good luck getting them to come out for that BS reason 😂