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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

3 Daily Telegraph articles today on trans women in sport

25 replies

Fenlandia · 28/04/2022 11:14

The DT has been solid on gender issues in recent months, but today there are not one but three articles which I can best summarise as "boo hoo women are meanies for not letting males into their sports and their changing rooms"

www.telegraph.co.uk/womens-sport/2022/04/28/special-report-mystery-testosterone-womens-sport/

www.telegraph.co.uk/womens-sport/2022/04/28/grass-roots-sport-becoming-unwelcoming-place-trans-women/

www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2022/04/28/natalie-van-gogh-uk-15-years-behind-holland-comes-trans-women/

Barely a mention of the women and girls who are and will be put off sports by including fully-intact males. Comments are only open on the testosterone one.

(If you don't have a subscription you can use various methods that have been discussed on these boards that I can't mention eg web archive sites)

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Circumferences · 28/04/2022 11:43

I'm not a subscriber, but are the articles so ridiculous and pathetic they make the GC argument unintentionally?

Fenlandia · 28/04/2022 12:13

Arguably, yes, and the comments on the testosterone one are not buying this shit whatsoever

(We're not allowed to link to archive copies of paywalled articles but it's easy to put in a link yourself and read the content. Also apparently you can go to a link then put your device in airplane mode)

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Fenlandia · 28/04/2022 12:16

Highlights:

Article #1 - uses the PCOS testosterone gotcha to blur the argument about differing T levels in men and women
Article #2 - someone complained about a man being in the women's changing rooms
Article #3 - we all have different genetics therefore no need to worry about fairness in women's sports!!

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Believerinbiology · 28/04/2022 12:26

Boo hoo...funny how it's women being mean. Easy solution stay in your sex category and fight to be welcomed there. ( Tried to type what I really wanted to say multiple times and couldn't for fear of using banned phrases)
Also Natalie has profited hugely from having a male body in the female category. If I remember correctly a longer career than most women also

IcakethereforeIam · 28/04/2022 12:39

I don't know how, but I was able to read (well skim, I must get on with something else). Couldn't find a single supportive comment in the ones I looked. A few people were using the first article to leave comments on the other two.

Fenlandia · 28/04/2022 12:52

The DT's commenters really get it now, I was so blown away by the comments under Suzanne Moore's piece about that lunch that I wondered if they were all Mumsnetters under fake male names 😅

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Fenlandia · 28/04/2022 13:20

Thanks, yes that one too has a couple of hundred comments

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zanahoria · 28/04/2022 13:42

The DT has Suzanne Moore and has published other stuff from the GC view, I think they are just balancing it out a bit.

Clangyleg · 28/04/2022 13:48

How on earth can it be balanced when the other side is clearly unhinged and falling off its perch?

puffyisgood · 28/04/2022 14:49

The T levels opinion piece is really irritating, riddled with slippery half-truths and misleading implications.

e.g.

"The IOC originally picked 10 nmol/l because that’s the highest naturally occurring levels of testosterone in women. Some women with PolyCystic Ovarian Syndrome will have higher levels of testosterone than other women. "

The second sentence here strongly implies, without directly saying so, that worldwide there are millions of otherwise healthy women with PCOS unknowingly sauntering round with T levels of 10 + nmol/l.

This plainly isn't true:

"Serum testosterone levels in patients with PCOS seldom exceed 4.8 nmol/l. If testosterone levels are greater than 4.8 nmol/l then further endocrinological investigation to exclude other causes of androgen hypersecretion (e.g. Cushing's syndrome, adrenal gland or ovarian tumours)." primarycarenotebook.com/simplepage.cfm?ID=-516620222

"Most testosterone values in PCOS will be ≤150 ng/dL (≤5.2 nmol/L). Testosterone values of ≥200 ng/dL (≥6.9 nmol/L) warrant consideration of an ovarian or adrenal tumor."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069067/

"Total testosterone levels greater than 200 ng/dL [5 nmol/L] are suggestive of a virilizing tumor and should prompt pelvic ultrasonography."
www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2019/10/screening-and-management-of-the-hyperandrogenic-adolescent

Then there's the claim that there's "a complete overlap between the sexes" without anywhere definining what's meant here by "complete overlap". The actual numbers show a difference that's more or less night and day (picture below). By a laughably huge distance, the likeliest explanation for those few women in the study whose numbers were in the male range is plainly that they were doping. The following caveat just doesn't cut it when being used to draw strong, counter-intuitive conclusions: "...although we cannot rule out the possibility that any of our volunteers were doping, we consider it unlikely as each volunteer had to sign a consent form that asked them to state that they were ‘clean’..."

www.researchgate.net/publication/260522903_Endocrine_Profiles_in_693_Elite_Athletes_in_the_Post-Competition_Setting

The real mistake was ever letting anyone who'd ever had functioning testicles into women's sport. The fact that there's no single clear bright line between male & female T levels means that, even though both the 10 nmol/l

3 Daily Telegraph articles today on trans women in sport
TheCurrywurstPrion · 28/04/2022 16:04

“Elgeti” moaning about being challenged in the women’s pond on Hampstead Heath?

So use the mixed sex. Nobody will care about your sex there.

The greed and insistence some men have to use what’s not theirs, despite the fact that them forcing their way in excludes women who used to use the facility, is despicable.

nepeta · 28/04/2022 16:51

puffyisgood · 28/04/2022 14:49

The T levels opinion piece is really irritating, riddled with slippery half-truths and misleading implications.

e.g.

"The IOC originally picked 10 nmol/l because that’s the highest naturally occurring levels of testosterone in women. Some women with PolyCystic Ovarian Syndrome will have higher levels of testosterone than other women. "

The second sentence here strongly implies, without directly saying so, that worldwide there are millions of otherwise healthy women with PCOS unknowingly sauntering round with T levels of 10 + nmol/l.

This plainly isn't true:

"Serum testosterone levels in patients with PCOS seldom exceed 4.8 nmol/l. If testosterone levels are greater than 4.8 nmol/l then further endocrinological investigation to exclude other causes of androgen hypersecretion (e.g. Cushing's syndrome, adrenal gland or ovarian tumours)." primarycarenotebook.com/simplepage.cfm?ID=-516620222

"Most testosterone values in PCOS will be ≤150 ng/dL (≤5.2 nmol/L). Testosterone values of ≥200 ng/dL (≥6.9 nmol/L) warrant consideration of an ovarian or adrenal tumor."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1069067/

"Total testosterone levels greater than 200 ng/dL [5 nmol/L] are suggestive of a virilizing tumor and should prompt pelvic ultrasonography."
www.acog.org/clinical/clinical-guidance/committee-opinion/articles/2019/10/screening-and-management-of-the-hyperandrogenic-adolescent

Then there's the claim that there's "a complete overlap between the sexes" without anywhere definining what's meant here by "complete overlap". The actual numbers show a difference that's more or less night and day (picture below). By a laughably huge distance, the likeliest explanation for those few women in the study whose numbers were in the male range is plainly that they were doping. The following caveat just doesn't cut it when being used to draw strong, counter-intuitive conclusions: "...although we cannot rule out the possibility that any of our volunteers were doping, we consider it unlikely as each volunteer had to sign a consent form that asked them to state that they were ‘clean’..."

www.researchgate.net/publication/260522903_Endocrine_Profiles_in_693_Elite_Athletes_in_the_Post-Competition_Setting

The real mistake was ever letting anyone who'd ever had functioning testicles into women's sport. The fact that there's no single clear bright line between male & female T levels means that, even though both the 10 nmol/l

This is excellent. Put the two graphs at the bottom today, and you can see that an extremely tiny percentage of men and women overlap in their testosterone levels. Similar distributions overlap lots more for things like men's and women's heights or shoe sizes.

nepeta · 28/04/2022 16:52

Sorry about the typo and confusion. I assumed the graphs would be included in the direct quote, and said that when you put them together you can clearly see that female testosterone levels hardly overlap with male testosterone levels.

puffyisgood · 28/04/2022 16:59

TheCurrywurstPrion · 28/04/2022 16:04

“Elgeti” moaning about being challenged in the women’s pond on Hampstead Heath?

So use the mixed sex. Nobody will care about your sex there.

The greed and insistence some men have to use what’s not theirs, despite the fact that them forcing their way in excludes women who used to use the facility, is despicable.

Elgeti hasn't been blocked from anything, neither competing nor taking part, but feels so uncomfortable at the treatment of Emily, Lia, et al that she feels "uncomfortable", possibly [though this isn't explicitly stated] at times very uncomfortable going swimming.

The same article includes an interesting, if counter-intuitive, observation from a female rugby player that "it's never been the csae where size has mattered in rugby". The reasons for this view being more valid than those of World Rugby or the RFU aren't fully explored.

puffyisgood · 28/04/2022 17:03

nepeta · 28/04/2022 16:52

Sorry about the typo and confusion. I assumed the graphs would be included in the direct quote, and said that when you put them together you can clearly see that female testosterone levels hardly overlap with male testosterone levels.

Yep. I think I forgot to add a few words at the end. I meant to say something like:

The real mistake was ever letting anyone who'd ever had functioning testicles into women's sport. The fact that there's no single clear bright line between male & female T levels means that, even though both the 10 nmol/l and 5 nmol/l limits are decidedly generous to trans women [and therefore decidedly ungenerous to natal women], there's plenty of ambiguity & scope for half-plausible sounding arguments to be tossed around. If you start from a presumption that TWAW etc & should therefore be included without overwhelming evidence to the contrary, you can see how there's an argument to be made. If you start with an open mind, e.g. that TW in sport are a relatively new thing, and that there should be no starting presumption as to whether the best place for them to participate would be the M or F category, the trans lobby's arguments are quickly shown up for what they are.

Pixiedust1234 · 28/04/2022 17:17

Posting so I can read this later. Site is too glitchy to do anything else, sorry.

zafferana · 28/04/2022 17:31

The Nadine Dorries article isn't saying the women are meanies for not letting men compete - it's saying that the confusion over the rules and allowing testosterone to be the guide for inclusion is wrong and that sports governing bodies need to stop jumping on easy solutions.

Nadine Dorries is right - this does need to be sorted out and sports governing bodies need to stop pussy-footing around and abdicating responsibility. The public at large doesn't want to see men dominating women's sport and anyone at the DT who is in any doubt about that needs to take a look at the comments after this article. The public tide has turned and, as many commentators have always said, women's sport is the canary in the coalmine.

Shecanmove · 28/04/2022 18:58

This is a really good article from Medscape from a sports physiologist who advised world rugby on their sensible policy. Not sure if you can access it but measured science. www.medscape.com/viewarticle/972250?uac=154526DV&faf=1&sso=true&impID=4194802&src=mkm_ret_220428_mscpmrk_trdalrtuk018_int

Mummyoflittledragon · 28/04/2022 19:46

Crikey I thought the Telegraph would be more gender critical. I am rather confused. Is this about balancing views?

Sonaive10 · 28/04/2022 20:02

Circumferences · 28/04/2022 11:43

I'm not a subscriber, but are the articles so ridiculous and pathetic they make the GC argument unintentionally?

Yes I would say so. It had better just be about balance as I am a subscriber and if I wanted TWAW rubbish I could get it for free in the Guardian. The Telegraph has been a joy to read recently (not today maybe) as there have been so many GC articles. The reader comments are usually 99% GC and 1% sexist old duffers who think 'feminists' are getting a taste of their own medicine from the MRAs and TRAs. I think for sure many DT readers have had their eyes and ears opened to the issues over the last 6 months.

HairyBum · 28/04/2022 21:18

Gosh that’s all about minimising physical differences between males & females and also women needing to show compassion to trans people despite being traumatised ‘up to a point’

Sonaive10 · 29/04/2022 00:18

The Telegraph has got a good article on midwifery students at Edinburgh Napier being 'taught how to help men give birth'. The comments are wonderful.

Fenlandia · 29/04/2022 11:02

Sonaive10 · 28/04/2022 20:02

Yes I would say so. It had better just be about balance as I am a subscriber and if I wanted TWAW rubbish I could get it for free in the Guardian. The Telegraph has been a joy to read recently (not today maybe) as there have been so many GC articles. The reader comments are usually 99% GC and 1% sexist old duffers who think 'feminists' are getting a taste of their own medicine from the MRAs and TRAs. I think for sure many DT readers have had their eyes and ears opened to the issues over the last 6 months.

Yeah I subscribed to the DT because of its GC coverage, despite being one of those textbook lifelong Guardian readers. The politics isn't my cup of tea but the rest is a much more enjoyable read than the Guardian which just wants to make you feel guilty and miserable

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flyingbuttress43 · 29/04/2022 11:52

To clarify further, all these articles were in the specialist pull-out women's sports section of the paper, which appears every month.

Of all the newspapers the Daily Telegraph is the most gender critical and has been for ages. It is also the newspaper that supports women's sport the most and women in business too.

I take the printed version so I see all the articles and numerous features on the trans topic, including Suzanne Moore's, who left the Guardian to join the DT as a columnist. It is the most gender critical of all the papers, including the Times even though Janice is a warrior on the issue there.

Yes, it is right of centre on economics so might make ex-Guardianistas clutch their pearls a bit. It's not beyond giving their ex-columnist Boris a kick up the wotsit either. Today Suzanne Moore was ranting in a full page feature about pervy men watching porn in public, calling it an act of agression (the new flashing) against women.

Ask yourselves..would your rather read Moore in the DT or LOJ in the Guardian?

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