Help needed in discussions with teen DS

[sydenhamhiller]

Hi all, grateful for any help in constructing my argument in discussions with my DS (18).

I have just had big argument with DS who called me transphobic. I am so hurt: am just giving a little bit of back story - and let me know what you think?

I an white English, heterosexual.
I grew up in Asia and Europe, came to Uni in Scotland at 19. Lived abroad for another 2 years.

I have lived in London ever since, married with 3 kids. Have gay friends, bi sexual friends. It’s not really been anything we’ve even considered being an ‘issue’ of course.

A toddler group friend’s child, that I have known all my life, came out as transgendered 3 years ago at age 15. So happy they could live as their authentic self. I - of course- use their new names and pronouns, in birthday and Xmas cards for example, and when referring to them at home. As is only right - am not looking for ticker tape parade, just setting scene.

This young person has just posted on social media that they have got engaged. I am slightly taken aback - and was explaining to my daughter that it is because they are only just 18, in y13 - not because of gender/ sexuality, I would feel same way if DS got engaged to his girlfriend.

DS came down and said, well yeah but you are transphobic. I said no, don’t be offensive. I really think everyone should be allowed to live their best life as long as they are not hurting anyone, but I am concerned about self identifying, and encroaching on safe female only spaces.

DS scoffed and said, but yeah, how often does that happen? And how does it affect you? I mentioned the male prisoners identifying as women and then going on to commit sex crimes on female inmates. DS said ‘yeah, but that’s just a few cases’.

I am not armed to debate this with him, and feel so insulted that he would say this? He says I am like white people in the 1960s who didn’t really realise they were being racist, and I will look back in 20 years and see my bigotry for what it is.

I am ridiculously upset by this conversation.

So the women raped in prison, there's only a handful of them, so they're irrelevant? Men aren't raped as often as women. Let him know if he's raped it doesn't really count because it doesn't happen that often.

How would he respond if you said he was sexist? If you jighlighted that he is treating women as disposable to make a point? That his attitudes are similar to those that say women are asking to be attacked based on how they dress and you think he will look back and regret his willingness to throw away women's rights for the sake of men.

It sounds like he's regurgitating sound bites rather than really thinking about the issue logically, so maybe if you can draw some parallels for him, he will see it from a different angle.

The thinking at school and online for this age group is very much Stonewalled. My teens and I just don't discuss it, after they screamed at me for suggesting they might want to read what Jk actually wrote rather than what social media said she did.

Oh ffs, if this is real he's just being a teenager. Tell him to tidy his room up. If he refuses, he's being transphobic because he thinks it's women's work. See, you can both play this game.

Tell him you are entitled to your views and if and when he’s ready to discuss them without being rude, to let you know.

👆This! 👏👏 👏 I'm sure he's not a bad lad, but he needs to have a little reflect on how callous that opinion is.

Ask him how he feels about the impact on devout Muslim and Jewish women and point out to him he’s both racist and sexist if he thinks they don’t matter.

I quite like this video - I can’t seem to link but Google ‘can A 5’9 white guy be a 6’5 Chinese woman’.

but actually - I would not give him much airtime - I would state your position and then refuse to argue!

Don’t bother getting in an argument. Just say “in this family we don’t name call and say hurtful things to each other. You’re welcome to your viewpoint, but you need to learn to share it respectfully and in a mature way.”

You are not alone. If you gently prompt them to think it through and define their terms, they eventually get what you mean. Sport is the easiest one for sons to get. Why wouldn't it be fair for a 5 year old compete against a 25 year old and so on? What are the actual protected characteristics under the Equalities Act 2010 (clue it's not what Stonewall claims) and how do you define who falls under each group? What does 'sex' mean then as a protected characteristic?

We should really be asking why have schools/education been so complicit in propagating this unscientific ideology?

So his basic argument is that women who are assaulted are acceptable collateral damage. The women who have been, and will be, assaulted because of the move to gender segregation (from sex segregation) are all women who would not have been assaulted under sex segregation. These are assaults that have been created by gender segregation.

It is depressing how common this argument is from defenders of this gender ideology. And it shows how deeply rooted misogyny is that they make it.

What was it some twat said a while ago "acceptable collateral damage"? Just ask him to justify that.

Lots of good stuff on this thread:

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Hmm, that didn't work, sorry! The thread is on page 2.

DS scoffed and said, but yeah, how often does that happen? And how does it affect you? I mentioned the male prisoners identifying as women and then going on to commit sex crimes on female inmates. DS said ‘yeah, but that’s just a few cases’.

So he's being a bigoted sexist right there - he clearly considers female inmates to be not worthy of human rights.

Or you could ask him why he's not going out with a transwoman (or transman, if he's gay).

Or you could ask him how he defines himself as a man. Go around calling him a sperm producer or prostate-haver.

But it's tough, when it's your own little boy ...

Thanks all.

He is a lovely human being really. Thoughtful, empathic, sensitive: his English teachers loved him. He is a good and kind friend to his friends who have struggled with mental health issues over the past couple years. But on this topic, it’s like they are brain washed. I think a PP mentioned they’ve been ‘stonewalled’. We can discuss all sorts of issues - except this one. I should not have entered into a debate, I usually do a ‘agree to disagree’.

Thanks again.

Tell him he'd best drop the male chauvinist pig arrogance or lose all credibility as a gender-equality warrior.

@sydenhamhiller I haven't posted here before but your post really resonated with me.

My lovely teenage daughter believes that JKR is a terrible transphobe, also screams when asked to actually read the words she wrote and point to the transphobic bits, believes a woman can have a penis and that biological males are entitled to take part in women’s sports. The fact that I don’t and can’t and will never agree makes me a bigot.

To be called a bigot, to my face, several times now, by my own daughter… I can hardly type the words without crying. It really hurts (I'm a mixed race woman whose stood up agains racism, sexism and who has also always believed in and stood for equal rights for gays and lesbians). I avoid talking about the topic at all now.

I think this trans ideology is corrosive and destructive and it’s tearing families apart.

Just watched the 6'5" Chinese woman vid and it's a very good illustration of the convoluted thinking involved. It ends with 'If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything' which speaks for itself.

My teen dd same age as your ds savaged me about this.
She was literally frothing at the mouth telling me I could not utter the words or even think them!

Quietly though over a few months when she had calmed down. I laid out the reasons - that I felt worried for her in a hospital ward if a man was next to her over night, or the idea of having a man giving me a smear without my consent (she could not disagree with that one, and got quite stressed with the idea) and do women in prison deserve to be put at risk sharing a tiny cell with a man? How would she feel. I just kept going. But ultimately she changed her mind when one of her girl friends turned into a guy over night and her straight girl friends were asking her why she didn't find 'him' attractive. My dd is straight and she was not interested in a man with long blonde hair and 36ddds!!
So it was only experience and common sense that finally made its way to the surface. They are ALL being brainwashed at school for sure. Transphobia is on a par with racism here.

I would be really driving home that any woman raped is one woman too many, and explaining the harm it is causing. Ask him to imagine how it would feel in their shoes. He may have been spoiling for a fight, in the end you have to agree to disagree, and respect each other's view as I know from experience trying to explain can often cause more entrenchment.

DS said ‘yeah, but that’s just a few cases’

I think if it were transwomen getting raped, it would not be 'just a few cases' in your son's opinion and he would not be callously flippant about it.

And how does it affect you?

Errr.....you're a woman and all of this affects your rights??? Or do women's rights not matter to him?

My stance on gender identity is based on the fact that a far too high proportion of males are sexual predators. As this has been the case in every society throughout history, I believe there is something sadly innate to the male sex, rather than purely environment driven that makes this the case.

If people are comparing this to racism, are they saying that there is some innate increased violent and sexual criminality that arises from their being black? Because it doesn't sound like the feminists are the racists, if that is their stand point.

My argument that men are innately more violent and predisposed to violence than women is never an argument winner with men, though, so maybe avoid that one!

Ack, need to proof read better.

If he is a good, kind, thoughtful caring individual and you think he has good judgement on most other issues, would it not be worth listening to him on this one. Ok his comments do not come across brilliantly but I'd be interested in hearing him develop his thoughts.

When someone I trust as a good person has an alternative view to mine, I'm always interested in what they have to say.