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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kathleen Stock: Abolish the dream of gender abolition

53 replies

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 18/04/2022 21:21

Exploration of her thoughts on gender and radical feminism and intersections with your human need to create and abide by social norms.

Radfems also understand the limits of choice and consent, and that many women will choose to self-harm in various culturally approved ways. They understand that against the combined forces of economic incentive and societal encouragement, people will go along with things that are bad for them. And they also tend to be concerned with problems affecting ordinary women, focusing on typical or worst-case situations rather than unusually good ones. Their motivation is not protecting the income of the occasional happy hooker, rich porn star, or cheerfully altruistic surrogate, but with financially desperate women pushed into prostitution or into selling their babies. Radfems know that taking money for what your sex organs can provide to others is not a day’s work like any other.

This is all great stuff as far as I’m concerned, and there is much else to admire besides. At the same time though, many radfems simultaneously pursue a goal which undercuts a lot of this. They want to “abolish gender”. I think this is barking. Allow me to explain.

No matter how officially scathing about social norms they are in theory, in practice the opponents of women’s interests certainly know how to wield them to get the results they want. Male-dominated movements of every political and religious persuasion have never hesitated to lay down the kind of social law for women that suits them: be chaste, have lots of babies, be silent, be docile, be up for BDSM, don’t criticise prostitution, accept males as “women”, or whatever. It’s always about the attempted production of shame…To repeat my first point: women can’t get rid of sex-specific social norms. All they can do is fight to get the sex-specific norms that work for them.

kathleenstock.substack.com/p/lets-abolish-the-dream-of-gender?s=r

OP posts:
MangyInseam · 26/04/2022 16:15

MedusasBadHairDay · 26/04/2022 14:48

The idea of "gender" as sex stereotypes is, I think, a kind of knock-off from that. But I don't think it holds up all that well, even in terms of trying to talk about something to abolish. For one thing, many stereotypes are in fact true - they are true descriptions of differences found in the aggregate between groups

I think this also ties into the nature vs nurture debate. If you believe that it's more nature, then of course you can't believe that it's possible to have a world without gender (as in sex stereotypes). Whereas if you believe it's nurture then those stereotypes only exist because of social conditioning, so would vanish without the social conditioning of enforced gender.

Yes.

But if you look in human societies as a whole, does anyone really think that the only reason the lives of men and women tend to pattern differently is social conditioning?

It's perhaps more plausible that if you looked at women as a whole compared to men as a whole, and somehow imagined that none of them actually reproduces, they might as a group behave completely the same, in terms of statistical distribution.

There is not much evidence for that theory, mind you, and some against, but it's not so clear as patterns being dictated or influenced by reproductive role.

But do people honestly think that men are really only more aggressive, as a group, due to social conditioning? For example. I rather get the impression that most people don't believe that, and yet it is certainly a stereotype - which is to say a statistical fact that doesn't apply to all individuals although it's true in the aggregate.

MedusasBadHairDay · 26/04/2022 16:57

But if you look in human societies as a whole, does anyone really think that the only reason the lives of men and women tend to pattern differently is social conditioning?

Given patriarchy is a pretty universal thing and that gendered socialisation is a way for the physically stronger sex to maintain the hierarchy, it doesn't seem too unbelievable for it to play a part all over the world. Especially when you realise that some of the expectations/behaviour is different in different cultures.

Pluvia · 27/04/2022 09:41

Testosterone. The hormone that shaped the world.

www.amazon.co.uk/Testosterone-Story-Hormone-Dominates-Divides/dp/1788402928

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