Meriwether v. Shawnee State Opinion

[unname]

US 6th district court ruled in favor of university the Professor who was fired for refusing to use a student’s preferred pronouns. He was denied the compromise of using no pronouns at all rather than calling a male student identifying as female by feminine pronouns. The opinion is the 2nd link below and really worth a read. The court ruled it was a violation of his freedom of speech and an attempt to compel him to speak against his beliefs. It seems like a very important opinion on a broader scale as underscores the importance of these freedoms particularly in a university setting where the free exchange of ideas is paramount to society as a whole.

adfmedia.org/case/meriwether-v-trustees-shawnee-state-university

adflegal.org/sites/default/files/2021-03/Meriwether-v-The-Trustees-Shawnee-State-University-6th-Circuit-Opinion.pdf

@Cailin66

Bristol University wrote cat gender as part of their pronouns guidance. Apparently Nya/Nyan means meow. Though I’m not sure if an actual cat would get it. Our cat only says meow, particularly when he wants food. So I don’t think Bristol accept cats as students.

Anyway I was only wondering if you’d call someone their preferred cat pronouns if they told you they identified as cat gender.

My cats very much identify as male and female and are incensed at the appropriation of their cathood and attempt at erasing their sex.

Also, they think going to University sounds stupid and that no actual cat would choose to do so when they can lay about the house and do as they please all day.

@tabbycatstripy

I saw on Libs of Tik Tok that a member of staff in one school in the US put puppy pads in a kids’ bathroom for the children who now identify as ‘furries’.

And I believe it.

Being a child sounds even more difficult than being a parent today.

@unname

This is all very strange to me because I cannot imagine failing to call someone whatever they want to be called.

I work in a very large building with roughly 700 people. I see and say hello or morning to about 500 every day, I say lots more to some than others. But if you add in pronouns and make a fuss when I call you by name as this student did , I'm gonna be buggered to remember them all If we take only one Zie, zim,zer, zis, zerself, zieself.

Assuming I remember, staggeringly unlikely, which do I use and when?
"Morning zieself" ?
"Morning zer" ?

Multiply that by 700 people because I'll have to know them all in case I bump into any and I can see a bloody huge problem.

You may say well it'll only be one percent that will use these going by averages. But that's still a lot to remember and there is nothing stopping every single employee picking a pronoun or even making some up. And it's me in trouble if I dont remember.

So I'll end up muttering morning at people and scurrying off before they get me into conversation. Not a fun way to live.

@Terfydactyl

I just mean I personally cannot see myself calling someone Sir when they want to be called Ma'am. I agree that others to do so is indeed compelling speech.

I also cannot imagine saying anything at all to 500 people in a day! That sounds like a nightmare.

[quote unname]@Terfydactyl

I just mean I personally cannot see myself calling someone Sir when they want to be called Ma'am. I agree that others to do so is indeed compelling speech.

I also cannot imagine saying anything at all to 500 people in a day! That sounds like a nightmare.[/quote]
It is a nightmare, but it's the job. I loved wearing masks cos I could get away with saying very little, a wave and a nod worked well.

I mean ok your good to call a man ma'am, mostly so am I.

I am really not too fussed about one man requiring different pronouns, but you also have to use those pronouns when the person is not there. So going by your actual life, could you remember one percent of peoples pronouns all the time?
And as soon as people either choose there own pronouns to take the piss or to get someone they dislike in trouble, or just to be a cunt that increases the percentage. How many do you think you can remember? This affects your entire life not just work.

Well Terfy I work in a massive organisation and I wish they’d introduce pronouns. I’m going to have a different one for every day of the week, and the first Friday of the month I’ll be cat gender, while I’ll be a dog on every second Tuesday in the month. When anyone mis genders me I’ll be complaining to HR.

@Cailin66

Well Terfy I work in a massive organisation and I wish they’d introduce pronouns. I’m going to have a different one for every day of the week, and the first Friday of the month I’ll be cat gender, while I’ll be a dog on every second Tuesday in the month. When anyone mis genders me I’ll be complaining to HR.

Yup, first time I get hauled in for using the "wrong pronouns " I'm doing the same. And my God will I police it until everyone is heartily sick of me. Any meetings I attend i will give no warnings of today's pronouns. Just have my email open to send each wrong form of address straight to HR. Show the stupidity every single day.

Your OP is unclear: was the university arguing that the professor should NOT be fired?

Think the article is saying that the university fired the professor and that the court has now ruled in the professor’s favour (not the university’s - ie the first bit of your OP is an error).

@Loopytiles

Think the article is saying that the university fired the professor and that the court has now ruled in the professor’s favour (not the university’s - ie the first bit of your OP is an error).

Yes, exactly. What I intended to type was

US 6th district court ruled in favor of the University the Professor who was fired for refusing to use a student’s preferred pronouns.

For everyone agreeing that they are happy to use whatever pronouns someone demands, I suggest searching for "Pronouns are Rohypnol – by Barra Kerr". I agree with Kelly Jay Keen that we need to stop allowing aggressive men to dictate what we are allowed to say.

The entire shit show of men in women's prisons, and men in women's sports only became possible because we very kindly agreed to call some men women, in an attempt to make them feel better about themselves. After all, what does it cost us to be kind?

I think we now know enough about exactly how much it costs, and we need to reclaim the right to speak in accordance with what our eyes and minds tell us is true.

For example, some people believe that marriage is a union by God that joins one man with one woman, and can be only that. People who believe that could use the same argument about freedom of speech and religion in order to refuse to a same-sex couple as "married", or to refuse to use the word "husband" or "wife" to refer to either spouse within such a marriage

This is why in the UK, it is a civil partnership. Simon Fanshaw said they specifically didn't call it gsy marriage so as not to piss the church off as they think they 'own' marriage.

What they fought for was for gay couples to have all the same legal protections that marriage afforded straight couples. Financial protections, next of kin, inheritance etc.
Most people just call it marriage because that's what this contract is traditionally called, even by the non religious.

To me, gender ideology is a religious belief. As such, I don't have to go along with it.

A man can claim to be a woman all he wants. He has no right to force me to pretend he is, but this is where all these new laws and policies are crossing the line. They ARE forcing everyone to go along with it. It's like forcing me to say there is a god.

@Whatsnewpussyhat that was true initially but not any more - the UK does now have same sex marriage as well as civil partnership.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/marriage-and-civil-partnership-in-england-and-wales/marriage-and-civil-partnership-in-england-and-wales-accessible-version

@Cailin66

Bristol University wrote cat gender as part of their pronouns guidance. Apparently Nya/Nyan means meow. Though I’m not sure if an actual cat would get it. Our cat only says meow, particularly when he wants food. So I don’t think Bristol accept cats as students.

Anyway I was only wondering if you’d call someone their preferred cat pronouns if they told you they identified as cat gender.

'Actual cat'. What do you mean? Human cats are cats!

Bad Bristol University if they don't accept that. How non-inclusive of them. At least that would be one identity which did not attempt to shoehorn some meaningless 'pick and mix' definition onto ''woman'. Unless they are also claiming that 'cats are women', they could have their own feline facilities.

@unname

This is all very strange to me because I cannot imagine failing to call someone whatever they want to be called.

If you concede the pronouns then you concede everything. How can you ban a 'she' from changing rooms or a women's hospital ward? When a biological male uses female pronouns he is actually identifying as a woman. Personally I wouldn't go along with that.

This is all very strange to me because I cannot imagine failing to call someone whatever they want to be called.

I take it you have no issue with newspapers calling brutal male rapists 'she' and requiring their victims to address them as 'she' in court even though this is being demanded to demean the victim and provide sexual pleasure to the rapist?

Look up AGP too

@Lovelyricepudding

This is all very strange to me because I cannot imagine failing to call someone whatever they want to be called.

I take it you have no issue with newspapers calling brutal male rapists 'she' and requiring their victims to address them as 'she' in court even though this is being demanded to demean the victim and provide sexual pleasure to the rapist?

Look up AGP too

@Lovelyricepudding

I think you only read the one comment of mine that you have quoted.

@AKASammyScrounge

I see what you are saying and am kind of in a "figuring things out" stage because of the rapid changes happening. My attitude has always previously been "Sure, we call you "she" because you asked but there is a line we draw and that it at the ladies room door".

Where I live, that is the way it always seemed to be until the past few years. Everyone knew it was a polite social fiction and no ground was ceded. That has all changed, obviously.

I encounter exactly two trans people in my life. I have no reason to use anything other than their names in discussion with them, and no conversations about them with anyone other than my husband. So pronoun use doesn't come up much for me. If it did I am sure I would take a stronger stance and I certainly support others doing so.

There's no way, for instance that I would refer to the UPenn swimmer using female pronouns. This is a person actively taking the place they do not belong and harming women immeasurably.

What my comment meant is that it's strange that I would probably just call a person "ms." if they asked, but I still so strongly support the Professor in refusing to do so. I think the stakes are so much higher in a classroom and at a university and particularly in a philosophy class.

@Cailin66

Bristol University wrote cat gender as part of their pronouns guidance. Apparently Nya/Nyan means meow. Though I’m not sure if an actual cat would get it. Our cat only says meow, particularly when he wants food. So I don’t think Bristol accept cats as students.

Anyway I was only wondering if you’d call someone their preferred cat pronouns if they told you they identified as cat gender.

Our male cat only says ‘Wow’. Very loudly.

He hisses at other neutered and unneutered males. He opens his mouth panting at neutered and unneutered females (flehmen response).

So either a ssssss or huhuhuh from him.

Being more serious, how could you ‘tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth’ in a court of law if you are calling someone by pronouns that are grammatically and biologically wrong. It’s farcical.

@AKASammyScrounge
When a biological male uses female pronouns he is actually identifying as a woman. Personally I wouldn't go along with that.

"Identifying" is a word that I never even heard used in this manner until the last decade. Rachel Dolezal springs to mind.

Is it ever used when someone could accurately just say "I am." instead?

@Stealhsquirrelnutkin

For everyone agreeing that they are happy to use whatever pronouns someone demands, I suggest searching for "Pronouns are Rohypnol – by Barra Kerr". I agree with Kelly Jay Keen that we need to stop allowing aggressive men to dictate what we are allowed to say.

The entire shit show of men in women's prisons, and men in women's sports only became possible because we very kindly agreed to call some men women, in an attempt to make them feel better about themselves. After all, what does it cost us to be kind?

I think we now know enough about exactly how much it costs, and we need to reclaim the right to speak in accordance with what our eyes and minds tell us is true.

Thank you for posting this. I read this before and just read it again.

@Cailin66 if Pips Bunce can have 2 pronouns then to have 5 to cover the work week shouldn’t be a big stretch for an organisation to accommodate

@unname

This is all very strange to me because I cannot imagine failing to call someone whatever they want to be called.

What if they wanted you to call them God? or Mum? or Your Highness?

5 five, FIVE, what ya talkin' about girl. I'm going to have as many pronouns as there are colours of the rainbow and mix them up weekly too. In addition I'll be asking to put my star sign and religion too. Can't wait.