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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

16 year old grooming victim in Rochdale was arrested for being a madam

82 replies

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/04/2022 17:58

extract

Between 2008 and 2010, a child abuse ring that came to be known as part of the “grooming gang” phenomenon operated in Rochdale,Greater Manchester. Girls aged between 13 and 15 were trafficked, prostituted, raped and assaulted by the gang.

One victim was forced to have sex with at least 20 men in one night; another was forced to drink vodka, and was vomiting over the side of the bed while being raped by “countless men”.

The perpetrators would pass the girls to their friends, often to settle a debt. The victims, many of whom were from difficult backgrounds and therefore particularly vulnerable, were plied with drugs, alcohol and fast food, and then taken to “chill houses” across the north of England to be abused. One 13-year-old victim became pregnant and had an abortion. Some of the men involved were arrested, tried and found guilty. But not all.

One of the victims – given the fictitious name Amber inThree Girls, the BBC One drama about the abuse – was 14 when she was targeted by gang members. After a troubled upbringing, Amber had been placed on the child protection register as being at risk of sexual and emotional abuse and neglect. Craving love and attention, Amber was lured into a nightmare, subjected to repeated and often violent sexual abuse.

(Continues)

That nightmare should have ended with the arrest and trial of the perpetrators, but instead the police, Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) and even social services treated her not as a victim but as a perpetrator.

When we met in a hotel in Rochdale last month, Amber was accompanied byMaggie Oliver, a former police detective who walked out of the job in protest at the way Amber had been treated.

In 2009, when Amber was 16, uniformed officers arrived at her mother’s house, arrested her and took her to the police station.

“[I] can’t remember exactly what they said, but it was something along the lines of being a ‘madam’,” she recalled. “I didn’t know what that meant.” She was held in custody for hours before being released on bail. Her mother was not allowed to be with her during the interview, and there was no mention of an appropriate adult.

Amber had, under pressure from the abusers, taken some of her friends to the takeaway where the ringleaders operated from. She told me: “It wasn’t like a forced thing. It was like a casual, ‘Oh, bring your friends.’” She was a vulnerable child, being sexually abused, controlled and in fear.

(Continues)
No further action was taken against Amber, but it would be another two years before the CPS agreed that she should be treated as a victim and witness rather than a suspect. During that period, Amber – by now pregnant and living in a one-room flat – continued to be targeted by the grooming gangs. Although police interviewed a total of 56 men on suspicion of abuse, only a handful were tried. There were therefore many still walking free that had evaded detection.

(Continues)
Without Amber’s initial evidence there might never have been a trial at all. She gave the police a list, at an early stage of Operation Span, with nicknames, telephone numbers and other details relating to offenders. She later went on to positively identify a number of offenders, which enabled charges to be brought against them all.

(Continues)

But in court, she was portrayed by the prosecution and defenceas an assistant pimp. Because she was not involved in the trial, and therefore did not give evidence, she had no opportunity to defend herself. She was vilified and nicknamed in the press as the “Honey Monster”. Although a court order prevented her being named, everyone in her local community knew who she was.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/17/rochdale-victim-i-was-groomed-at-14-then-the-courts-came-for-my-children

Why was there so much interest in placing responsibility on Amber? Yes, the victims of child abuse and repeated rape are groomed into introducing other girls into the horror. We know this. The priority should be identifying and criminalising rapists surely, not schoolgirl victims in denial about being rape victims?

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Grotbag81 · 18/04/2022 16:00

BarrM

Highly unlikely, any discontent will just feed into the far right, especially in Oldham imo, at best it's a farce, that fans the flames of conspiracy rather than calms the situation.

After Rochdale 10 years ago, surely GMP and Manchester Labour should be experts at handling the situation and have full evidence based procedures of what works after all the independent inquiries & lessons they have supposedly learned.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/04/2022 16:22

I keep wondering what kind of repressive and intimidating effect the police treatment of Amber must have had on other young women in the area who could testify against the men who are still free.

If everyone local knew it was Amber who was being demonised as the "Honey Monster" in the press, then the other women who'd been victimised would have wondered if they'd get the same treatment in the press if they came forward.

The police might as well have been trying to intimidate young women into keeping quiet, especially after social services got involved. I mean, we know these gangs particularly preyed on girls in care. If you were a woman who had personal experience of that, would you want to take the slightest risk of your own children ending up in the care system that had failed you?

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/04/2022 16:25

Vampire not a bit of you deserves to be hated. Not a single bit. Multiple people betrayed their responsibilities to you, as a human being, and as a patient. It wasn't your fault.

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BridgeofStock · 18/04/2022 17:06

I've heard the next big grooming scandal is likely to be Oldham. The corruption in the council is rumoured to be huge, like the 'fictional' Red Riding drama.

Grotbag81 · 18/04/2022 17:22

BridgeofStock

There has been a many calls for the government to step in and handle it, including from Oldham Conservative Party.

I think the Labour Party totally underestimates the impact of historic and ongoing issues of grooming. Their unwillingness to discuss it also has an impact on services for victims in Labour areas.

The IICSA inquiry broke the wall of silence for survivors yet Labour's attitude and actions show they really just want survivors to go back to their box and shut up forever more, because how dare white working class people expect more. I think they forget 1 in 4 people are survivors, it's like they have the perception all survivors are smackhead prostituting trash, rather than everyday people working and going about their business, which is a ridiculously outdated view, with the exception of Sarah Champion.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/04/2022 19:14

After the account of the former 12 year old in Oldham, which I quoted earlier in this thread, I will be completely and utterly un-shocked by any reveals.

I totally believe the victim, but I think she was deceived. A distressed 12 year old isn't that hard to deceive, after all.

2006 wasn't the dark ages. Everyone knew about stranger danger. It would have been an unusually naïve member of the public who would have told a 12 year old to accept a lift from a strange man, much less any police officer. Even the most naïve police officer on earth wouldn't have told a child to accept a lift from a man at the station who was there to show his licence in connection with some kind of driving offence!

I'm sure the clerk at the desk was very convincing when he told her this. I also think he was lying.

He knew who they were and he was in on it.

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gardenhelpneeded · 18/04/2022 22:03

Its a very weird thing for a policeman to doom- to get some randomers to take a 12 year old home. Shows how little respect they had for her. Heartbreaking.

FrancescaContini · 18/04/2022 22:09

Absolutely shocking. Very upsetting. All those poor girls, just children, and already very vulnerable.

LK1972 · 19/04/2022 08:31

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

After the account of the former 12 year old in Oldham, which I quoted earlier in this thread, I will be completely and utterly un-shocked by any reveals.

I totally believe the victim, but I think she was deceived. A distressed 12 year old isn't that hard to deceive, after all.

2006 wasn't the dark ages. Everyone knew about stranger danger. It would have been an unusually naïve member of the public who would have told a 12 year old to accept a lift from a strange man, much less any police officer. Even the most naïve police officer on earth wouldn't have told a child to accept a lift from a man at the station who was there to show his licence in connection with some kind of driving offence!

I'm sure the clerk at the desk was very convincing when he told her this. I also think he was lying.

He knew who they were and he was in on it.

I agree, and how come 'the desk clerk' couldn't be located afterwards? I also think he was in on it - what kind of man would tell a drunk child to get in a car with total stranger?
WalkerWalking · 19/04/2022 08:45

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

After the account of the former 12 year old in Oldham, which I quoted earlier in this thread, I will be completely and utterly un-shocked by any reveals.

I totally believe the victim, but I think she was deceived. A distressed 12 year old isn't that hard to deceive, after all.

2006 wasn't the dark ages. Everyone knew about stranger danger. It would have been an unusually naïve member of the public who would have told a 12 year old to accept a lift from a strange man, much less any police officer. Even the most naïve police officer on earth wouldn't have told a child to accept a lift from a man at the station who was there to show his licence in connection with some kind of driving offence!

I'm sure the clerk at the desk was very convincing when he told her this. I also think he was lying.

He knew who they were and he was in on it.

100%. There's almost no chance that the two men just happened to be "showing their licences" at the same time anyway (what are the chances that two friends were both stopped and given producers within 3 days of each other?) and I don't believe for one second that they then opportunistically subjected that poor girl to that level of violence.

They were there for the exact purpose of picking up a vulnerable young girl, and the desk clerk was in on it.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/05/2022 21:53

Relevant news concerning allegations against police in Scotland.

extract

Police officers in Glasgow are being investigated over allegations they were involved in a child abuse ring in 2014.

It comes after a young woman waived her right to anonymity to claim that she recognised an officer who sexually abused her as a child, because he was the same man who sometimes picked her up and took her home when she went missing.

Toni Louise came forward as part of an investigation by Sky News that found a 'huge gulf' between the number of children referred for help as victims of modern slavery, compared to the number of attempted prosecutions for the crime.

Toni, 22, said she was groomed and sold for sex by a man she thought was her boyfriend, and the first time he told her to have sex with another man she was 12-years-old.

From then on she claims she was sold to up to 30 men a day, including two police officers.

She told Sky News: "One day he was like 'I need you to do something for me. And well you don't really have a choice in it'.

"I was kind of like, 'I don't really want to do this'. And he was like, 'It's too late now. I've already told him that you're gonna do it'. And that was the first time that I was sold for money."

Toni Louise said she then started to go truant from school.

"At first it was only like once or twice a week that I would have to leave school. And then it got to like every day. It got to the point where I wasn't even making it up to school. He was picking me up at the end of my mum's street."

She told the news channel she was sold to up to 30 men a day, from all walks of life, including the police officers paid to keep her safe.

Challenged by Sky on how she knew they were police officers, she replied: "Because some of them were the ones that took me home, when I've been reported missing. So, I've seen them in their uniform."

She claims one officer who abused her several times over a six-month period even had a conversation with her mother in the kitchen after dropping her back home.

According to her account, the abuse was never mentioned during the car journeys.

She said: "I think work mode is different to 'I'm going to rape a child' mode like it was never acknowledged."

Toni Louise told Sky News she eventually escaped her situation, but claims when she first reported it to the police she was told: "You've got an active imagination for a wee girl haven't you?"

Report continues at Glasgow Live's website

OP posts:
Flaxmeadow · 18/05/2022 23:32

There are more GG cases about to be tried in crown courts across the North of England this year.

PanicPrevention · 19/05/2022 00:30

When 10%of our own parliament are under current investigation for sexual misconduct and 6%of men(college campus study) will admit to being actual rapists if you ask them the right questions, it doesn't take much to come to the conclusion that between 6 and 10 percent of male police staff are either out and out abusers or apologists for abuse of women and girls.
Interesting point about the race aspect; doesn't seem to be a concern with stop and search of mainly black men, and how the race optics of that might look. Statistics for tasering and deaths in custody are pretty grim reading too.
Industrial rape of mostly white, working class, vulnerable girls, children, suddenly the perpetrator race matters. Why?
Why should it matter anyway?
If a crime has been committed it needs investigation and prosecution.
It has been in some peoples interests to play the race card in this circumstance that's for certain.

Flaxmeadow · 19/05/2022 00:49

PanicPrevention · 19/05/2022 00:30

When 10%of our own parliament are under current investigation for sexual misconduct and 6%of men(college campus study) will admit to being actual rapists if you ask them the right questions, it doesn't take much to come to the conclusion that between 6 and 10 percent of male police staff are either out and out abusers or apologists for abuse of women and girls.
Interesting point about the race aspect; doesn't seem to be a concern with stop and search of mainly black men, and how the race optics of that might look. Statistics for tasering and deaths in custody are pretty grim reading too.
Industrial rape of mostly white, working class, vulnerable girls, children, suddenly the perpetrator race matters. Why?
Why should it matter anyway?
If a crime has been committed it needs investigation and prosecution.
It has been in some peoples interests to play the race card in this circumstance that's for certain.

Industrial rape of mostly white, working class, vulnerable girls, children, suddenly the perpetrator race matters. Why?
Why should it matter anyway?
If a crime has been committed it needs investigation and prosecution.

The answer is in your comment.
It matters because the crimes are racially aggravated. A racially aggravated crime carries a higher sentence.

PanicPrevention · 19/05/2022 01:34

I would 100% agree with you flaxmeadow, there is an argument that these crimes are racially aggravated.
But in these cases that doesn't seem to feature for cause for a higher sentence.
Race shouldn't matter for justice unless it's an aggravating factor in a hate crime, which is already a crime anyway. Hate crime legislation is supposed to protect the victim not the perpetrator.
Sadly, and obviously it does matter in these cases, where it doesn't in others, why is that??
I'm old enough, but still young enough to find it shocking and disgusting, that I've got black and brown friends who were beaten on the street in broad daylight by the police under the suspicion of petty crimes. The police didn't care about race relations then.
They don't really care about race relations now either.

Maybe they feel the wholesale rape of white working class girls is petty shit they don't want to get thier collars dirty over, even less be accused of racism over.
Maybe its worse than that and a significant minority are actually involved.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 19/05/2022 01:46

If the police do not worry about the optics of black men dying in custody, black teenagers being disproportionately stopped for searches, and so on, I don't see why they would suddenly feel shy about arresting child rapists who were also not white. When did security staff feel embarrassed to stop brown people in airports? They're fine about specifically targetting brown people there!

Racial sensitivity has been an excuse on the police's part. The truth is, they did not care about these girls.

As for the rapists themselves, they're probably racist as well as misogynists. I see no need to assume that they're decent people in other areas of their lives. They're serial rapists- who the hell asks rapists for advice on how to respect people of all nationalities and races?

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PanicPrevention · 19/05/2022 02:17

Yes they are probably racist as well as misogynistic.
I know the current narrative is white privilege, but that doesn't translate to all sections of society especially not in Britain.
I was at sixth form college with boys, nearly men, who didn't feel inhibited to write ' white girls are slags,' on the whiteboard in the commen room.
South Asian origin, middle class parents.
I didn't have any advantage over them for being white, as a poor working class woman I was way down the list and acts like that, which seemed to go un challenged, only re-enforced my beliefs, that men, whatever their race, would be given a free pass to subjugate and stigmatise me as a working class white women.
I hope things have moved on since then but somehow I doubt it.
I really hope racial slurs wouldnt be so accepted now in any context.

PanicPrevention · 19/05/2022 02:29

Not to say any of those boys who wrote or believed or laughed at that at the time would be a rapist, but it speaks to the level of respect, or lack of, for the girls who it was aimed at.
White girls.
We were in that college on the same merits as everyone else, intellectual merit, we all had at least 5 GCSE, some of us including me had 10 good grades.
I'm actually more mad about it now than I was then.
How dare they and how was it acceptable.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/05/2022 08:36

As I remember, putting up with that kind of thing was something many teenage girls felt they had to do, in order to prove their own non-racist credentials.

Adults should have set boundaries for pupils. Often they didn't, did they? It's only once you realise adulthood yourself, that you realise how big a failure this was.

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/06/2022 21:51

Update on Oldham from the Manchester Evening News

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Ponderingwindow · 20/06/2022 22:05

Sarcasm alert

don’t you realize that these girls weren’t actually forced to do this. They weren’t kidnapped and held at gunpoint. They could have just as easily gone and gotten a job at the local takeaway to earn some money, but they came here instead.

end Of sarcasm

its the same story again and again. As long as prostitution is seen as legitimate, trafficking and grooming will be excused. There will always be vulnerable young women somewhere to prey upon. It has to be a hard line in the sand because without a supply of vulnerable women to coerce in some fashion, there will never be a sufficient supply of “workers”.

littlbrowndog · 20/06/2022 22:24

Yes pondering.

this thread is not great to read. Trying to think of words to say. Perhaps educating. But probably horrifying does it. For all the poor girls. My heart

DeaconBoo · 20/06/2022 22:59

Wow.
The report release is here www.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/news/the-review-into-historic-safeguarding-practices-in-oldham/
If you scroll to the bottom the 199-page review is there as a pdf. I haven't got the stomach to read it all tbh.

Clangyleg · 21/06/2022 10:59

Horrific and was/is happening in a town near you. The Oldham report on tv news last night reported that one of the rapists, possibly the leader was employed as a social care assistant by Oldham. Thus probably being in a position to have knowledge of which girls would be vulnerable , where they lived etc. The networks stretch into all areas and there have been several councilors in different cities prosecuted for abuse offences.

bcc89 · 21/06/2022 11:21

This was explained in the programme Three Girls. They wanted to use her statements, but she wasn't a "good victim" for the trial, because she was aggressive and angry when they interviewed her (as I probably would be!) and spoke badly of the other girls.

They got around this and used her statements by also prosecuting her, to get the men put away.

It's awful.

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