Some single sex spaces are more equal than others

[ResisterRex]

This farmers' group has refused to open up to women. It seems they've fiercely defended their rights to meet as men need their own spaces for good mental health.

So men are allowed this but meanwhile on another thread, women can't have single sex rape crisis services.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/16/sexism-row-erupts-men-only-farmers-group-bars-women-one-lads/

"The group argued that all-male spaces are important because men need a safe space to discuss their mental healthh_, particularly in an industry where loneliness, stress and financial problems can trigger depression.

Mrs Edwards, however, viewed the policy as “discriminatory” and “outdatedd_” saying female farmers were being denied valuable networking opportunities.
Mrs Edwards, 53, and her husband Simon, 56, first put forward the proposal to the group after realising that if they had had daughters instead of sons, their children would have been barred from going to meetings with their father."

@Cailin66

What would happen if Mrs. Edwards declared she was a man?

Nothing would change.

When men want a single-sex group, regardless of whether or not it is a justifiable single-sex group, sex matters. It seems women are allowed to go so far in achieving equity of opportunity - and no further.

Funny, isn't it, how men's wishes are respected when they want to keep females out of men's groups, but it does not apply the other way around.

Why don't the Edwards set up a new mixed-sex group so that people have the option? That's all we're asking for women, isn't it? That women can have a single-sex group if they want, but others are free to hold groups that allow a different sex or age range.

Actually, age-range makes me think. Club 18-30: youth groups for the under 20s: specialist housing for the over-55s or over-70s. Is no one challenging these boundaries.

It's a difficult one because I understand the arguments about power dynamics and networking opportunities. I've no doubt that men find men only spaces beneficial on a personal level but I'm also fairly sure they talk 'shop' at these meetings too just as men have always done on the golf course or the gentlemen's club etc.

There's also the difference how men and women use spaces. If we were to see a recording of the dinner and after dinner talks I think to us (women) it wouldn't look like mental health and emotional support from the outside looking in.

IME most men don't talk and support each other the way women do. When I meet up with female friends and we're having a tough time over whatever issue, we tend to talk very openly. We dissect every last detail of someone's divorce, bad relationship with family or whatever the problem is.

DH has a long standing group of male friends and they are all hobby mechanics. They meet a few times a month to muck around with engines and the like.

I've long felt this group serves a purpose beyond just mechanics and over the course of many years they've been through bereavements, illness, relationship breakdown - the usual life stuff.

It doesn't look like the emotional support women give each other though. Someone in the group having a rough time will get acknowledged and some sympathetic words, a hand on the shoulder but the majority of the three/four hours will just be spent doing stuff and most of the talk about whatever engineering project of the day interspersed with banter/jokes/sport talk.

I do think that is what emotional support looks like for a lot of men. When it's just some blokes in their own garages most women wouldn't care about joining in. When you move it to career setting I can see why women looking from the outside in would think this is networking and shop talk (which it will be to a point), I don't see why I can't attend this dinner and presentation?

Why don't the Edwards set up a new mixed-sex group so that people have the option?

It’s worth listening to the Farming Today interview. The value of the group as it stands is that it puts young entrants to farming directly in touch with veteran farmers with years of experience and networking. Even if a mixed-sex group were set up it would take a very long time to provide this sort of facility, especially as the longer established male farmers would presumably choose to stay put. (The Edwards were prompted to try to change the rules as they realised that their two sons would be welcomed, but if they were daughters they wouldn’t, so to some degree they don’t really have skin in this game.)

@borntobequiet

Farming Today covered this. The issue for the women is that they miss out on valuable professional discussions and useful information.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00168hh

But of course men should be able to have their own single sex spaces and supportive groups if they so wish, as should women.

Seems to me that perhaps the meetings which are for professional discussion could be mixed sex, while separate meetings about mental health could be single sex.

I guess the problem is that few men would attend the latter. Unfortunately, the UK farming communities I’ve worked in were very sexist and traditional in their thinking, though there are always a few farmers who are less so. It will take a long time to remove those barriers.

I may be being cynical here, but I suspect the real reason for not wanting women is sexism. The claim that it’s for mental health is a convenient cover given that the challenge has now been made. Not that I think that men’s groups shouldn’t be allowed, if it is for justifiable reasons, however the power dynamics do mean that women still end up excluded, for reasons that are not truly justified, more often than their male counterparts.

Just listened. It would be interesting to know what groups the NFU runs in that area - if they aren’t active they should be and would be able to offer many more opportunities for knowledge based networking. It’s a much as about new entrants to the sector as established groups excluding women, and that’s where the NFU should be working hard/harder to ensure new entrants get all the support and networking opportunities they can.

Women rightly think single sex groups supporting men are a good idea.

And let’s be completely honest, most men support women’s mental groups and women only rape shelters. Our issue is with those who don’t.

I think part of the issue is that if a group was set up called say 'Farmers in crisis - male only mental health support' not many men would actually go.

They go to generic groups that don't have that stigma so those generic groups end up doubling up on the purpose - the stated purpose then a less talked about sub purpose.

There is still a lot of stigma (real and imagined) around men seeking mental health help. There's a network of support groups called Men's Shed or something like that. There's a reason it's named as such - in a very vague way.

These established men's groups, when career related, being somewhat multi purpose does disadvantage women in that field because it excludes them from the part of it that is about knowledge, opportunity and networking. It's not always easy to replicate that part of it from the ground up as either a mixed sex group or female only group.

I don't think it is a lot of women, just a very vocal minority and one very loud agenda organisation pushing this. Women are afraid to disagree or speak up for fear of either being labelled as anti trans or prosectued for holding a different belief.

But either you extend and provide additional versions, or you destroy what is working well and meeting the needs of people involved because some political agenda and sense of 'fairness' (and frankly moral superiority) makes people feel entitled to do so.

Set up a female only. Set up a mixed sex. People will rapidly move to what suits them, and some may belong to more than one. The unattended groups can then be closed. Inclusion means add, not strip people of what works for them and meets their needs to fit someone else's arrogant view of what is more politically just.

Adding as an interesting note: here is a thread talking about whether a single sex group should have to move to mixed sex against its will -

and look at the number of posts able to value other views and needs apart from 'rahhhh my group want it so stuff everyone else, they don't matter, their needs aren't valid anyway cos they conflict with what I want',

and the total lack of 'if this group won't capitulate and do what benefits my group then let's destroy it so no one can have it and then they'll be sorry'.

And no one so far threatening to rape, harm or threaten anyone at all.

The total lack of chimps tea party thinking is quite interesting.

@SallyLockheart

Just listened. It would be interesting to know what groups the NFU runs in that area - if they aren’t active they should be and would be able to offer many more opportunities for knowledge based networking. It’s a much as about new entrants to the sector as established groups excluding women, and that’s where the NFU should be working hard/harder to ensure new entrants get all the support and networking opportunities they can.

Good point. And given the President of the NFU is the very effective Minette Batters, perhaps something for her to get behind? Though TBH she’s probably got enough on her plate after Brexit.

I think in this day and age this farmers group should be inclusive of everyone.

Muirfield Golf Course was banned from hosting The Golf Open after voting against having female members not so long ago. There was an awful lot of fuss kicked up about it being male only at the time. It was all over the news. They eventually changed their policy, which I think is a good thing.

One can't say I'm okay with that because it's some obscure group which will never affect me, but I'm not okay with this far bigger male only group.

As far as I remember the challenging of male only spaces was quite prominent in the 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s.

‘chimps tea party’

Artichoke, I think I love you.

@ohfook

This is where it gets complicated I think because traditionally men's single sex spaces are more likely to be used for networking and career advancement whereas women's are for safety.

This.

But also all the comments on mental health etc in farming.

Young farmers club managed to be unisex. But then again, YF is pretty much all about sex.

@TheFnozwhowasmirage

I'm a female farmer and do t have a problem with this. Farmers are renowned for battling on through adversity regardless and not being able to admit that they are struggling. I can think of 3 instances off the top of my head where a local farmer has committed suicide by shotgun. I'm a member of three women in farming Facebook groups,and they are strictly female only.

Am so sorry to hear that. Good to know there are support groups.

Issues of mental health are a big deal in farming: it can be a very isolating job, dealing with factors like the weather and farm gate prices that are outside the farmer's control.

I think men's groups like this are entirely legit.

So. Lisa Edwardes, the farmer concerned, chairs the NFU in Lancashire. And is presumably in a position to create a structure of organisations to support networking and discussion. It makes her complaint seen rather churlish. Apparently there are lots of women only groups - Ladies in Pigs, Women in Dairy - so unless she wishes to open all those up to men as well, it sounds like double standards.

I have several friends who farm. Female as well as male. The women belong to a group for women running running dairy farms. There are several women-in-farming networks from what I gather and they have group days out to agricultural shows etc.

I'm concerned that women want their own single-sex groups but are arguing that men shouldn't be allowed to have the same. Surely men are allowed some privacy and dignity, too? Farming is so isolating and the rate of depression and suicide is high. I can understand how some male farmers wouldn't feel comfortable having to mind their manners and watch their language around women.

If I'm feeling low and in need of support I'd far rather talk about how I'm feeling to women, who have a better chance (probably) of understanding where I'm coming from. I might allow myself to cry with a group of women. I wouldn't in a mixed group. I can understand that some men might feel the same way.

I didn't realise that Lisa Edwardes was a NFU chair. This does seem an insensitive and ill-timed manoeuvre. Farmers have been through such a tough, isolating period with lockdown and Brexit and ever-more uncertainty. One of my friends who's a livestock vet reports that early on during lockdown he and all his colleagues had specialist MH training to help them identify and know what to do if they suspected any of their clients were suffering badly. They were all allowed extra time on their visits to have a cup of tea and a chat, because sometimes they were the only people the farmer would see for days or even weeks.

One reason given in the FT interview for the existence of all-women groups was women’s exclusion from existing groups. The point was also made that women sometimes have to go out of area to attend these.

Of course men are entitled to have men-only support groups. But professional networking groups that confer professional and technical advantages should be open to all.

Are you suggesting that Women In Dairy, where female dairy farmers may share expertise and information as well as support shouldn't be allowed in case the women confer professional and technical advantages to each other and leave the poor men out?

There are plenty of ways farmers can find professional and technical help outside their social and support groups. The NFU offers loads of training opportunities for everyone.

I'm thinking back to the professional networking groups I've belonged to over the years and trying not to laugh at the idea that they conferred anything barring an extreme dislike of professional networking groups.

I have no problem with men meeting socially only with other men or having single sex toilets and changing rooms but I do think single sex groups associated with an occupation could be argued as discriminatory. Women have been trying to smash the glass ceiling for decades and whilst this isn't an appropriate metaphor for farming, if women are excluded from traditionally masculine or 'male' jobs we are going backwards. Could it then be argued to say no female fight fighters, no female police officer etc?

It's perfectly reasonable to suggest that men have a single sex space to undress in for the purposes of dignity and privacy and comfort (and all this plus safety applies to women) but I'm not sure I can argue this in a work context.

If it was the NFU excluding women from training and networking opportunities, I would have a problem with it. The Liverpool club is not at that level - it’s a farmers version of men in sheds.

Are you suggesting that Women In Dairy, where female dairy farmers may share expertise and information as well as support shouldn't be allowed in case the women confer professional and technical advantages to each other and leave the poor men out?

No.

@borntobequiet

Are you suggesting that Women In Dairy, where female dairy farmers may share expertise and information as well as support shouldn't be allowed in case the women confer professional and technical advantages to each other and leave the poor men out?

No.

Exactly what born says. It's more that the immediate response was NO (which is legally justifiable) and there then quite rightly followed none of the following:

• doxxing
• compiling lists of individuals to be cancelled
• Twitterstorms forcing the group to capitulate

No one was / is saying men should give up their support spaces.