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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bad History (National Trust Scotland)

16 replies

NitroNine · 15/04/2022 23:18

NTS have a whole piece on their website in which they talk about changes to menstrual hygiene products in the first half of the twentieth century (focused on the experiences of women who lived in a property they now own).

And they actually use the woman/women throughout.

It’s headed up with a disclaimer though:
We recognise that menstruation is an experience that can be highly variable, and can mean different things to different people. We acknowledge that not all people who menstruate are women and not all women menstruate. However, for the purpose of this story, the term ‘woman/women’ has been used.

It’s inevitable that we will look at the past with all the benefits of the present - but you can’t go round imposing current ideas on it. Did all of NTS miss that day in P7? And every single other time it was taught.

The absolute insult of “not all women menstruate” - imagine trying to get a disclaimer like that put on for post-menopausal women & women who cannot menstruate for medical reasons? It wouldn’t ever [have] happen[ed], not that any of those groups of women would have been so spectacularly self-absorbed as to try to make it.

I note that NTS didn’t point out it was perfectly appropriate to use the language of the time (in the sense of it not involving slurs) & they were in fact being respectful of how the women they were talking about understood their own identities. And indeed that it would be completely inappropriate & wrong to project current understandings of gender into the past. Because if we’re going to start putting out wee disclaimers about things, that’s the one to have. Acknowledge their tremendously important Gender Feelz if you must - but then explain that they have no relevance here. Women’s history is about women. And history as a complete discipline isn’t interested either unless specifically looking at trans people - but even there modern!GenderFeelz Do. Not. Matter. One. Jot. Scholars of religion are expected to keep it together if they are also people of faith; & they don’t get any disclaimers. Completely ordinary Catholics are expected to keep it together in Canterbury Cathedral even though Protestants are doing a rubbish job at martyr-minding. (And just in case any genderist feels so inclined: the literal centuries of documented discrimination experienced by Catholics in the UK are sadly not over. To give an example of just how normalised it is, bonfire societies down in Sussex might not ACTUALLY want to burn Catholics, but they wouldn’t swap “no Popery!” for “no Jews!” or any other minority faith. Of course they shouldn’t be ok with the latter, but if they’re not, why are they fine with the former? Catholics being burnt out of their homes is not a thing of the distant past.)

Talking about women & displaying women’s history as exactly that is not problematic or exclusionary. Certainly it’s not transphobic. The claim trans-people are erased from history is not supported by the evidence. Women, however, particularly working-class women, have been overwhelmingly excluded from the historical narrative. Efforts to hear what they have to say being drowned out by nonsense about how Jeanne d’Arc was totally trans & we shouldn’t be assuming George Elliot’s gender (anyone tried claiming domestic servants were non-binary due to the physicality of their work yet?) are enraging. Because it’s still privileged people talking over the disenfranchised.

Only female bodies are capable of menstruating; & the difference between the sexes cannot be subject to a disclaimer, nor can it be claimed to be insignificant. If an individual is unable to cope with the very simple realities of the past eg division of labour by sex, the marriage bar, women’s struggle to become doctors (& limitations on their careers post-qualification), &/or the staggering inequality of access to education experienced by girls & women; they need therapy. The expectation that instead the world bend to them & round them is not healthy - for them as an individual, nor for history as a discipline.

OP posts:
nepeta · 15/04/2022 23:30

When they 'recognise' "that not all people who menstruate are women" they have re-purposed the word 'women' in a way which now requires everyone to agree that it means nothing but an abstract identity.

I am a woman because I live in this world as a female-sexed person. The above invalidates my identity and erases me.

Live4weekend · 16/04/2022 00:25

I can't recall boys getting the rubella jag when I was in primary school - were they saying in the 80s that boys didn't bare children?

I'm a bit out of the loop as I no longer live North of the border. I think Sanitary products are now free to 'anyone that needs them'? Does that include 'women' who don't menstrate and never will because (you're not really allowed to say this) they are not actually women?

mymiddlename · 16/04/2022 00:53

They've been stonewalled....

PlainJaneEyre · 16/04/2022 00:57

I am a member and have written to them for clarification of this and their policy.

MMBaranova · 16/04/2022 01:04

Thank you for your post NitroNine.

I'd like to know the process that led to the paragraph you italicised being included. Yes I know about the state of things in Scotland, but how did supposedly rational people decide that something so generally alienating and puzzling should be composed and included?

Welcome to the nightmare.

TheScienceStupid · 16/04/2022 01:41

Powerfully put, NitroNine - thanks!

JellySaurus · 16/04/2022 12:23

We acknowledge that not all people who menstruate are women and not all women menstruate.

The first part could have said:

We acknowledge that not all people who menstruate identify as women.

And that would have been fine.

The second part is not only redundant, but offensive.

Yes, not all women menstruate. But do any of these post-menopause or post-hysterectomy women, or women on the pill, feel the need to be mentioned this way? Do any of us feel in some way offended that the word women is being used in this context? Do we feel excluded? I highly doubt it.

It is quite obvious what 'not all women menstruate' refers to.

TWAW, but their absence of menstruation requires public acknowledgment in the way women's absence of menstruation does not. TWAW, but they do not do the womanly thing of just accepting that they are not menstruating.

JellySaurus · 16/04/2022 12:30

Fascinating little article, though. One of the things we just take for granted in our lives.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 16/04/2022 14:33

A very informative article, that shouldn't have been undermined by the silly introductory comment. This is women's history we're talking about. We don't have to tug our forelocks to males who want us to centre them.

I've emailed NTS pointing out that the comment is incorrect, as everyone who menstruates is a woman, regardless of the gender they identify as.

Don't know if they'll read it, but I think every letter helps.

Mochudubh · 17/04/2022 13:58

I'm a member and have emailed them too.

FromOurHatsToOurFeet · 17/04/2022 14:36

We recognise that menstruation .... can mean different things to different people

Well what about sticking to the scientific definition of shedding uterine lining through the vagina on a monthly basis? What else could menstruation actually mean?

PlainJaneEyre · 17/04/2022 15:45

I googled on this topic and there is a string of thought that trans women suffer mental and physical pain from the hormones they take so they claim they do have periods.

Zeugma · 17/04/2022 17:40

Museums and galleries have been very busy with the University of Leicester developing thinking for people and organisations at all stages in their LGBTQ practice, as they put it. I stumbled across this document from them when I was reading the other thread on here about the Burrell Collection.

I have a very old friend who's worked in a major national art institution all her career. She’s now contemplating leaving because she’s so shaken and upset at being aggressively verbally attacked by younger colleagues demanding that she comply with the new ideology.

Wauden · 17/04/2022 18:05

We recognise that menstruation is an experience that can be highly variable, and can mean different things to different people. We acknowledge that not all people who menstruate are women and not all women menstruate. However, for the purpose of this story, the term ‘woman/women’ has been used. Easter Angry
And how many hours of 'debate' did all this take, NT? Not bullying, by any chance?

NitroNine · 21/04/2022 19:33

Oh ffs just lost message on 3rd try writing.

How is it the shiny new site still hasn’t fixed that? 😡

OP posts:
IsItShining · 21/04/2022 19:48

I think your average person reading that would just think ‘not all are women, because some are girls’ and wonder why on earth they were being so pedantic.

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