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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A Point of View on Radio 4 at 20.50 - What is a Woman?

41 replies

nauticant · 15/04/2022 21:00

Zoe Strimpel talks on "What is a Woman?"

Very interesting. I didn't agree with it all, there is some fence sitting, but this is now being discussed on the BBC out of the ideological straitjacket. Worth listening to the end.

OP posts:
nauticant · 15/04/2022 21:01

I forgot the link:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00168s3

It'll take an hour or so to become live.

OP posts:
Sunflower987 · 15/04/2022 22:14

I disagree with her, I don't think it's complicated at all.

nauticant · 15/04/2022 22:37

It's more important to hear a point of view on the BBC that is out of line with what they've held for years, than to wait on a point of view that matches exactly with what you or I think.

I don't want the BBC to reflect exactly with what I think. I want diversity of thought where I can both agree and disagree with a variety of contributions.

OP posts:
Pluvia · 15/04/2022 23:08

I thought Emma Barnett had already knocked down the wall and continues to dismantle it most weeks on Woman's Hour, after the execrable record of Jane Garvey et al in recent years.

LizzieSiddal · 15/04/2022 23:17

Thanks for the heads up, I’ll have a listen tomorrow.

BattyOrange · 15/04/2022 23:32

Zoe Strimpel asks the seemingly simple question 'what is a woman', but finds no simple answer as she explores the question through a brief history of feminist thought.

BIB put me off immediately. I haven't listened because of course the answer is simple and, frankly, I don't have time for all the fannying around.

DysonSphere · 15/04/2022 23:43

Why is being a woman something complicated, something open to 'diverse views,' requiring dissection and seemingly hard to quantify, but being a man something straightforward and simple?

Abitofalark · 16/04/2022 00:45

The programme notes give an indication but if that's a good reflection of her thinking, it's not exactly illuminating or persuasive, even supposing the question had merit to begin with.

' "Zoe Strimpel asks the seemingly simple question 'what is a woman', but finds no simple answer as she explores the question through a brief history of feminist thought.

She explores the ongoing controversy over trans women in women's competitive sport, and the reluctance of public figures to define what a woman is. while revealing her own views on the issue.

"As the history of feminism itself makes clear, gender and sex are genuinely complicated. That overconfident or oversimplified definitions of woman - which apparently we're all supposed to be able to produce - can be limiting and crude. Not just in relation to trans women but biological women too," she writes.

She continues: "The bitter debate about trans women versus women is a debate about the meaning and realness of biology. And yes, biological difference matters, sometimes hugely. It is certainly real. But there is room for nuance: indeed, there is a necessity for it. Without it, I fear a relapse into arguing that women are defined by their biology beyond the swimming pool or the cycling track or the locker room." '

We have words and assertions that appear to be saying something meaningful but don't actually make a lot of sense. As I'm not on iPlayer I can't listen to it to see whether it takes on any better sense when you hear the whole thing.

watcherintherye · 16/04/2022 01:03

Was listening in the car. The part I heard was her considering different definitions of what a woman might be and none of them quite fitting the bill. Except they did, to my mind. E.g (not verbatim) ‘Someone with ovaries, or a womb - but what about if you’ve had them removed? Are you still a woman then?’ Sounded like a backwards step to me, but I only heard an extract.

lovelyweathertoday · 16/04/2022 08:18

I fear a relapse into arguing that women are defined by their biology beyond the swimming pool or the cycling track or the locker room.

There's probably a name for this logic error.

Woman is a biological category, so the definition and practical reality of women comes from biology.

Defining women by biology means women get to compete fairly in sports events that are for women. Or get given the correct healthcare etc.

This is considering a person's sex when it is relevant.

This is not remotely the same as sexist limiting women's options in life, which is where the phrase "I won't be defined by my biology" comes from. I that case the person's sex is being considered when it is completely irrelevant.

It never occurred to women that this phrase would be used against them as it never occurred to women that everyone would lose their minds and pretend they don't know what a woman is.

tabbycatstripy · 16/04/2022 08:20

‘Without it, I fear a relapse into arguing that women are defined by their biology beyond the swimming pool or the cycling track or the locker room.’

Que?

tabbycatstripy · 16/04/2022 08:22

My biology doesn’t define me. I define it. I - and anyone else who shares the distinguishing attributes of my biology that mean I am not a camel or a raspberry - am an adult human female.

ChopinBoard · 16/04/2022 08:25

Not complicated. No nuance required. I'm honestly completely SICK of people pretending otherwise and I have no time for such pathetic fence-sitters.

FOJN · 16/04/2022 08:33

I fear a relapse into arguing that women are defined by their biology beyond the swimming pool or the cycling track or the locker room.

Deliberately framed this way to create a narrative which provides the opportunity to corrupt the feminist argument against biological essentialism. If only we were hat stupid!

borntobequiet · 16/04/2022 08:36

The mantra “women should not be defined by their biology” has been disingenuously used over decades to minimise women’s voices in their own health care and to establish a work culture that is damaging to women in a number of ways, mostly by not acknowledging that they take on the largest share of domestic and parenting duties as well as paid work outside the home.
I remember being told by a “feminist” psychiatrist that my (later diagnosed) PMDD couldn’t in any way be caused by hormones because they were “natural” and that saying one was incapacitated in any way by one’s female body undermined the position of women in the workplace.

bellinisurge · 16/04/2022 08:38

No one ever seems to puzzle over what is a man.

tabbycatstripy · 16/04/2022 08:40

‘No one ever seems to puzzle over what is a man.’

Very complicated, very nuanced question. We mustn’t reduce ‘being a man’ to any biologically essentialist group of traits. Like being a fucking man.

Terfydactyl · 16/04/2022 09:11

@bellinisurge

No one ever seems to puzzle over what is a man.
I'm am waiting impatiently for local wannabe councillors to knock on my door so I can ask what is a woman, and if that proves too difficult to answer, I'm asking what is a man. See if i get a waffly answer to that too.
terryleather · 16/04/2022 09:17

@ChopinBoard

Not complicated. No nuance required. I'm honestly completely SICK of people pretending otherwise and I have no time for such pathetic fence-sitters.
Absolutely.

They can do one with their how many angels can dance on the head of a pin pondering.

Gemwoman · 16/04/2022 09:27

The convoluted logic in claiming that we will 'return to defining women by their biology' is similar to the reinterpretation of Simone de Beauvoir's single sentence about not being born a woman but becoming one. A subtly different interpretation of 'defined' and 'becomes' is being used. It is obvious if you read the rest of the de Beauvoir paragraph but I do not know where 'women are not defined by their biology comes from.

BenCooperisaGod · 16/04/2022 09:27

It is only ever those who are trying to convince you that women can have penises that find the definitions so challenging.

Birdsweepsin · 16/04/2022 09:30

Thanks for the link OP

mommyisbest · 16/04/2022 09:35

Thank god for Mumsnet. I can’t listen to any programmes or read any articles where logic is abandoned and analogies are no longer analogous. To challenge anyone saying a women is someone born with ovaries and a uterus with what if someone has them removed?!!! Seriously?! That’s like saying if birds have feathers what is a plucked chicken? Seriously?! Is this the argument against biological essentialism?!
Does anyone not remember ‘the exception that proves the rule’ in logic? Kathleen Stock writes about this. Why does programme after programme on gender/sex omit concepts that go to the point?

ACambsWoman · 16/04/2022 09:36

It's a shame that in the endeavour to work out what a woman is, Zoe never paused to consider and define what a transwoman is, perhaps if she put some more thought into that, it may help her decide that it's really not that complicated.

TheGreatATuin · 16/04/2022 09:47

Without it, I fear a relapse into arguing that women are defined by their biology
This is at the absolute core of where the conflict comes in.
This sentence only makes sense if you consider 'woman' to be a gender, compete with stereotypes, because then, yes, obviously you wouldn't want those of us with female bodies to be reduced to the sexist stereotype of womanhood.
And that's where the logical fallacy comes in.
If you're defining 'woman' as only a sex class, with no relation to gender stereotypes, then all that sentence is saying is "I fear arguing that female people are female people" which makes no sense.
Basically it boils down to this:
Us: 'Woman is the female sex'
They hear: 'Gender stereotypes are the female sex'
They can't conceive of the idea that gender boxes/essence/stereotypes aren't involved in our definition at all.

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