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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Poll - 92% of women's cycling pelaton vote against racing trans women

27 replies

flyingbuttress43 · 12/04/2022 12:08

www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/2022/04/11/90-per-cent-elite-womens-cyclists-opposed-racing-transgender/

Apologies if this has been posted but can't see it. In today's Daily Telegraph sporting section and trailed on main paper front page.It's behind a pay wall, so a few extracts below.

A survey by the Cyclistes Professional Assicues had canvassed female members before making representations to the sports's governing body, the UCI, which intends to review its rules on trans competitors. 92% did not agree with trans athletes racing in the women's pelaton.

Triple world champion Marion Clignet, who is part of a group which wrote to the UCI last week calling for its guidance to be rescinded said her group "was for the inclusion of transgender athletees in cycling without compromising equality in women's cycling".

"This does not mean the women don't believe there should be inclusion for trans athletes in cyling - we just want to keep the promise of fair and safe cycling to women alive and well."

But legal experts have stressed the need to widen the debate to questions of human rights. Dr Seema Patel, a senior lecturer in law at Nottingham Law School said: "This is not a simple scientific debate, even the notions of biological male and biological female are far more complex than the public would expect them to be."

Really? Clearly Dr Patel is not as good at biology as she is at law.

Jugen Steinacker, chair of World Rowing's sport medicine commission has described the current situation as as mess.The governing bodies of swimming and triathlon are reviewing their rules.

Mr Steinacker said there was also significant opposition in his sport to trans gender women competing in women's events. "Elite sport cannot be inclsive without compromising the rights of women to stand a fair chance of competing for medals."

OP posts:
334bu · 12/04/2022 12:16

Thanks for link

334bu · 12/04/2022 12:18

Interesting that Emily performed so badly early on in transition but recently is back to winning races.

Thelnebriati · 12/04/2022 12:19

Similar article not behind a paywall, and its surprisingly well written.

''The CPA women ran a survey a few months ago and over 92 per cent did not agree with trans athletes racing in the women’s peloton,” said Marion Clignet''
Clignet said her group was “for the inclusion of transgender athletes in cycling without compromising equality in women’s cycling”. She said: “This does not mean the women don’t believe there should be inclusion for trans athletes in cycling – we just want to keep the promise of fair and safe cycling to women alive and well.”

sports.yahoo.com/over-90-per-cent-elite-201658557.html

tabbycatstripy · 12/04/2022 12:41

‘This is not a simple scientific debate, even the notions of biological male and biological female are far more complex than the public would expect them to be.’

Notions?

JellySaurus · 12/04/2022 12:59

Human rights?

Article 9.2 of the European Convention on Human Rights:

Freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

"For the protection of the rights and freedoms of others."

So when TRAs claim that it is TWs' human rights to colonise women's spaces, beat women at sports, take women's awards, traumatise women in places they could reasonably expect to be safe, how about women's human rights be considered?

The ECHR that the trans ideology so doubly claims gives them they human rights to take whatever they want, clearly states that they do not have such rights.

Poll - 92%  of women's cycling pelaton vote against racing trans women
Artichokeleaves · 12/04/2022 13:11

both cis female and trans female athletes are equally important, and they should not be pitted against each other.

Oh stop the disingenuous language. Quit the horribly offensive term 'cis' (since I'll bet the writer hasn't bothered to check all females she is referring to identify with that political term: I suspect many are just female) and there is no such thing as a 'trans female'. There are transwomen, who are biologically male people expressing a gender identity of woman.

This is about whether male people should be permitted to race in female sports under the agreed illusion of being female if they would like to. That's it. That's all. The answer is that female sports are for biologically female bodies. Go invent new categories; the female one isn't available to be repurposed for the better happiness of male humans.

The law has a critical role to play in sport regulation, particularly when human rights and athletes rights are at stake

What human rights? It is not a human right to take stuff off females. It is not a human right for males to have access to females that do not consent, or for their interests to trump female interests. It is not a human right to be indulged in a fiction that is to the detriment of others. None of those things should be human rights. That phrase is being flung around far too much and far too casually as manipulation.

Fenlandia · 12/04/2022 13:13

In other news, 8% of turkeys voted for Christmas, in order to be inclusive of meat-eating families

Artichokeleaves · 12/04/2022 13:14

And since what the writer actually means by using the phrase 'cis female and trans female' to imply this is just two groups of females, is 'female females and male females'. That is literally the intent of the word choices.

It's really doesn't work to disguise the sex based issue.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 12/04/2022 13:17

No one is 'excluding' males from sport. They are already included in their own sex class.

If their performance is affected by any drugs they choose to take, tough shit.

Why the fuck should women's sport be 'inclusive' to men?

Fenlandia · 12/04/2022 13:23

@Artichokeleaves

And since what the writer actually means by using the phrase 'cis female and trans female' to imply this is just two groups of females, is 'female females and male females'. That is literally the intent of the word choices.

It's really doesn't work to disguise the sex based issue.

It's noticeable how TRAs are using trans-female more and more, now that they've colonised woman to such an extent
Artichokeleaves · 12/04/2022 13:25

It's an own goal. A really big one.

NancyDrawed · 12/04/2022 13:30

I hope that if 'trans female' comes up in an interview, the interviewer will press for clarification, or play dumb and say 'so, by trans female do you mean a female who has transitioned to be a transman?' which would then force the interviewee to say, no, I mean a male who has transitioned.

This blurring of language really annoys me, but I know why it is being done.

Datun · 12/04/2022 13:46

Elite sport cannot be inclsive without compromising the rights of women to stand a fair chance of competing for medals."

Well yes, of course. But they're so bloody slow. Ross Tucker concluded this months and months ago.

And I'm sick to death of the word inclusive. Like it's held up as some bloody beacon of morality that we should all be striving for, no matter what context.

We don't include able-bodied people in the Paralympics. Or adults in children's sports day.

Those are examples of inclusion. Which are quite patently wrong.

What's the special about men who want to be women that they get to have a sacred morality mantle conferred upon them?

Whatsnewpussyhat · 12/04/2022 14:15

It's noticeable how TRAs are using trans-female more and more, now that they've colonised woman to such an extent

We knew they would do this. They colonised the word woman so we used female and called them males. They now want to make the word female meaningless so they can still pretend they somehow belong in our sex class.

It also continues to cause public confusion as people will think a trans female is a transman.

The good thing about it now just in the last month people are waking up to what is actually being demanded by a group of males.

WhereYouLeftIt · 12/04/2022 16:05

I've screenshot the top reader comments responding to the article, I'm fairly sure that this doesn't breach copyright but open to being corrected on that.

Telegraph readers seem pretty GC to me.

Poll - 92%  of women's cycling pelaton vote against racing trans women
Artichokeleaves · 12/04/2022 16:13

Whole lot of people saying no there.

zanahoria · 12/04/2022 16:33

I think the rebellion in cycling will be a game changer. It clearly sets a precedent for other sports plus politicians and media outlets are taking notice too. Newspapers have become much more vocal in the last few weeks and Boris knows a bandwagon when he sees one.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 12/04/2022 16:35

@Fenlandia

In other news, 8% of turkeys voted for Christmas, in order to be inclusive of meat-eating families
Potentially, that 8% might have been made up of turkey scoffers, at least in part. We all know that women’s groups draw in turkey scoffers like elves to a Santa parade.
StrangeLookingParasite · 12/04/2022 16:39

"This is not a simple scientific debate, even the notions of biological male and biological female are far more complex than the public would expect them to be."

Oh yes it bloody is a simple scientific debate, other than for those completely ruled by ideology.
I am utterly exasperated by this pretence that the existence of a truly tiny number of variations in sexual development (all of which almost invariably conform to male or female) constitutes ' far more complex'.
No it fucking isn't.

picklemewalnuts · 12/04/2022 16:56

No thank you, chaps.

PermanentTemporary · 12/04/2022 17:55

An incredible relief to see someone in rowing talking some sense.

I'm sorry to say that a prominent female Olympic rower has been promoting exclusion (of women from their own events). I'm expecting there to be a clash at some point because a lot of female Olympic rowers in the UK have some Oxbridge experience, the women's colleges are powerhouses in female Cambridge rowing and both women's colleges now accept male students who identify as women.

DomesticatedZombie · 12/04/2022 23:34

Crikey, 92%.

nepeta · 12/04/2022 23:52

@tabbycatstripy

‘This is not a simple scientific debate, even the notions of biological male and biological female are far more complex than the public would expect them to be.’

Notions?

But the individuals who are transgender women are extremely unlikely to be defined as biological females on the basis of the various definitions of biological sex that exist. Their argument is that they are women because they identify as such.

This is a red herring, as the borderline cases she refers to have nothing to do with 99.9% of the cases we are debating here.

NitroNine · 13/04/2022 08:49

Murray Edwards are wildly enthusiastically TWAW (you SAY you’re totally a woman, they believe you, no questions asked); whereas Newnham at least require documentation stating you are female (eg passport or GRC) which is a limiting factor though not bloody limiting enough.

There’s nothing worrying/suspicious about the 2022 Lent Bumps results though - Newnham W1 are Head of the River ie in their rightful place & W2 & W3 are in second & 3rd divisions respectively when it’s not unheard of for W2 to make it into 1st division. Newnham’s always been a rowing College - not, unlike the [former] men’s Colleges, just full of People Who Rowed At School: Newnham Builds Boaties.

Murray Edwards only had one boat in the first 3 divisions - they may now be down to only one boat, which is boggling… That one boat also got spoons (ie they were bumped [beaten] every single day). So they’re not benefitting from TW in rowing.

This November 2020 article in The Tab about LGBT Cambridge Students’ experiences in sport heavily suggests that GenderWoo is only being allowed to go so far in sport. Much to the frustration of people who don’t see WHY they shouldn’t be allowed to row on the men’s team if they want to. I am sure you will be shocked by the superabundance of Main Character Syndrome throughout - & the most frustrating thing is, the determination to collect as many oppression points as possible & absolute failure to recognise that no, PE is not uniquely torturous for “queer” people means that the actual problems don’t receive the attention they deserve.

Behaviour at Dinners, swaps, formals & on training camps actually is something to be concerned about, far beyond the article’s mention of People can get drunk and say inappropriate things, some of which can be homophobic - & certainly the “heteronormativity” isn’t a legitimate concern. Nobody should be saying homophobic things, but - leaving aside that catering to the needs of, statistically, 9/10 people is not, objectively, bad, as long as that doesn’t harm the 1/10 - what is meant here by “heteronormative” is “not actively & enthusiastically queer”. Indeed heteronormative is also to be understood here as actively hostile to “queer” people, rather than simply as heterosexual people doing their thing. Raucous behaviour & the traditions of pennying + 5-pennying are not heteronormative: sexuality is utterly the wrong axis to analyse the behaviour on, but it is of course a helpful distancing tool for this individual. Describing swaps as heterosexual & heteronormative also pushes the idea that female athletes are not the peers of male athletes but rather a commodity for the university’s male athletes to enjoy, with swaps as the means of facilitating this. Of course people have ONS’ thanks to swaps, it would be naïve to think they didn’t. But it’s grotesque[ly misogynistic] to imply that i. swaps = practically an orgy & ii. that THAT is heteronormative behaviour.

There absolutely is a need for concern with regard to alcohol consumption & peer pressure; some sports are notoriously misogynistic; & there’s a Varsity (ie the Oxford + Cambridge Teams together) Dinner that was banned in the noughties (don’t know what happens with it now) because of Bullingdonish behaviour. It didn’t occur to the great eejits that you can’t always buy your way out of trouble. But complaining men’s & women’s teams sit apart is just… it’s like complaining that at the office party people who work in different departments on different floors & may not even know the people in the other department work for their company sit with their own department. Because it’s not about the women sitting away from the men, but the women/men (as applicable) sitting together with their teammates so they can socialise freely & celebrate (or possibly commiserate).

The absolute state of that article - as ever, the demand to focus the T. The horror that somehow GenderFeelz are not privileged above all else. And of course, nothing ever being enough. “Yes, everyone was doing exactly what I wanted, but I’ve stopped doing the sport I [claim to] love because I SUSPECT THERE IS WRONGTHINK IN PEOPLE’S HEADS: it’s something which isn’t tangible, there’s just a sense. I can’t really explain it.” Hmm

It goes without saying, but for the benefit of observers, nobody should ever have to experience homophobic or transphobic abuse in arena, including sports. Male persons, however, have no business trying to colonise women’s sport, however they made identify. Female people also need to accept that however they may choose identify, it is neither right nor fair to expect men’s sports to be opened to you without question, reservation or limit. It’s not ok to ask men to risk injuring you so you can feel validated; just as it’s not ok for TW to risk injuring women in their quest for validation. It’s well-trodden ground that it’s not ok for TW to effectively act as ringers; it’s also not ok for TM to demand the right to serve as a handicap for a team/crew. It might well be that that results in the sporting opportunities available to trans men being limited if they’re taking testosterone.

Surely the decision on choice of sport &/or level of participation vs hormone therapy has, for each individual, to be a matter of “what’s most important?” - & it still isn’t “banning trans people from sport”; it’s “trying to ensure safety & fair play for everyone”. Campaign groups like Stonewall could be doing a fantastic job of promoting & supporting the inclusion of trans people in sports. They have the resources - in all senses - to do so. They could even have used some of the millions of pounds they amass on the regular to set up some sports groups for trans people so they could skip all that pesky grass-roots work other minorities have to do. Instead they’ve stuck with their policy of: focusing entirely on TW [& TG]; demanding women [& girls] give up their spaces in name of (lifesaving!) kindness & inclusivity; having an almighty kicking-screaming temper tantrum at even the slightest questioning, featuring claims of [institutional] transphobia, that doing this harms nobody but refusal to comply is literal violence causing literal death, & how The Science & The Rules & The Law all say that absolutely this must happen immediately & you are not allowed to question it. What a waste. There are also things like Kick It Out that still need their attention.

Honestly, the perpetual victimhood is incredibly wearing. The UK manages to produce amazing Paralympic talent despite, rather than because - which is in line, I suppose, with the general human-rights-breaching theme adopted by this government, but still shameful. As is the refusal to invest in D/deaf athletes. Yet again TRAs are confusing “not getting their own way” with “oppression”. Disabled people (as a class, obviously it varies by individual) have SUCH limited access to sport (& when they can access it there’s usually Crip!Tax - ie additional costs relating to their disability - to be paid). You don’t get disability groups demanding everything be changed in abled sport to suit them though. “Mainstream” sport (as it were) should obviously be accessible to disabled people whose disabilities allow them to participate safely - but you can’t expect the world to bend to &/or round you, a fact that seems completely lost on TRAs. Including an astonishing number who self-ID (perhaps the key is that they also self-diagnose?) as autistic &/or disabled.

*
(This has taken about 4 hours of trying to write & make sense & I now admit defeat. And apologise for any incomprehensibilities that are left & if it meanders-repeats. Am frustrated because I can’t quite communicate the things I want to & am very aware of that but unable to fix it - so choosing to post rather than not; but also to explain that this - aggravatingly, mind-itchingly - isn’t Quite Right. Better, though, was not forthcoming; and weighing effort & worth against deficiencies it still seemed ok to post.)

PermanentTemporary · 13/04/2022 09:12

@NitroNine thank you! Fascinating and frustrating article as you said. I'd agree that it mixes up lots of things that are a major concern with others that just suggest a non-understanding of anything (comparing race times in rowing, for example, as an absolute measure of speed). I'd never heard of swaps or pennying so if they're traditions they're quite young, and they do sound fairly horrible so I'd support those being seen as a bad idea... But completely agree about mixing up different reasons for problems (which interestingly the interviewees point out themselves) and the total uninterest in disability access.