Why are any schools allowing this in their libraries?

[tabbycatstripy]

There was a mini scandal over a Catholic school in Southwark last month, with complaints to the Archbishop from a Tory MP (Eliot Colburn), after an invitation to a writer to come and promote his books and talk to the kids was withdrawn because his books were judged by the diocese to be ‘outside what is permissible in a Catholic school’. Complaints were made to Ofsted, the governors were dismissed by the diocese, and apparently the HT, who wanted the visit to go ahead, was at odds with the church.

So far so normal.

Twitter then went crazy in support of this writer, saying the books were lovely, fun, inclusive, with hardly any sexual content, and it was all so homophobic.

Anyway, I just saw an extract from the book:

twitter.com/dolphinmaria/status/1503490597931339785?s=21&t=0ZURhjXM1Ln6esoraw6Ilw

Why does a Tory MP (or any adult) think this content is suitable for adolescents?

Why is any librarian placing books in KS3 collections that talk this explicitly about (and trivialise) anal sex, oral sex, and porn?

Sexualised language? Well there's a huge problem with Shakespeare's position in the curriculum then. Total utter filth. And as for Chaucer...well.
Total filth.

@tabbycatstripy

Censorship is not the same as no debate. Censorship in this context is taking a decision that some things aren’t suitable for children. We can debate (and are debating) what those things are.

“But that’s censorship!!” is a futile thing to say because I know it is. Censorship is both good and necessary when dealing with kids. I don’t let my daughters (both under 10) watch Scream or Hostel. That’s censorship. I don’t let them read Cosmo. That’s censorship.

So what if it is? It’s called safeguarding.

You're saying that some things aren't suitable for children. You then say that you make a decision on the censorship for your children. Now, they're your children and you make the decision about them in the same that other parents make decision about their children. It's your opinion that matters. You may be judged, you may judge others, but so long as those decisions aren't harmful then it's you personal decisions and opinions that matter.

When it comes to public money then there must be a clear, transparent policy about how decisions are made. The book selection criteria is one of those things. You may not agree with it, but it will be transparent and agreed. If tested by complaints, it will either stand up to scrutiny or will need to be changed. It will not be the product of one person's opinion.

We should not make the decisions for all based on one opinion.

GrammarTeacher

We censor quite a bit of Shakespeare if we’re teaching younger children. We don’t teach young children Chaucer and the allusions to sex go over the heads of children anyway, as they tend not to understand 13th century bawdy jokes.

If you are saying Shakespeare is comparable to talking about kids “cumming” and “sucking cock”, I say that is obviously a bad faith comparison.

@tabbycatstripy

‘Do you think it would be a breach of safeguarding laws for American Psycho to be on 6th form library shelves?’

Yes. It has no place on school shelves where children might access it before they pass out of the legal care of school staff.

You clearly have no idea how school libraries work, OP

Rhubarb

‘ The book selection criteria is one of those things. You may not agree with it, but it will be transparent and agreed. If tested by complaints, it will either stand up to scrutiny or will need to be changed. It will not be the product of one person's opinion.’

I know. I am saying I would push for it to be tested, if it allowed for unsuitable content like this to be given to adolescents.

We agree.

@tabbycatstripy

‘So if they did put that on a sixth form shelf and a parent found out and wanted to challenge them around legality what would they do?’

They could take it to the governors, complain to Ofsted or - ultimately, if the issue wasn’t resolved - have the matter heard in court to establish whether the school has acted unlawfully.

A book like American Psycho available to 16-18 year olds? If you really imagine the governors or Ofsted would do anything about that, you are deluding yourself.

A court action wouldn't get past first base.

‘You clearly have no idea how school libraries work, OP.’

I’m a teacher who has spent years looking after kids reading in them. A librarian might be able to control who they issue with a book, but they don’t have much control over what a child takes from a shelf and reads.

Besides, nobody has indicated (in this situation) that the writer visit and book were restricted to older children.

@tabbycatstripy

‘An MP in addition to the other things you listed. They all seem to think that book is lawful.’

An MP was just convicted of sexually assaulting a teenage boy. I don’t care if they think the book is appropriate or not. I don’t.

OP, surely you know that is a ridiculous argument?

‘A book like American Psycho available to 16-18 year olds? If you really imagine the governors or Ofsted would do anything about that, you are deluding yourself.’

In American Psycho, the ‘psycho’ rapes, tortures, kills and mutilates women for fun. He ties up a living woman and lets a rat rat her from her insides out. That book should not be given by school staff to 16 year olds, and yes, I would take that opinion as far as court.

Eat her, not rat her.

@tabbycatstripy

GrammarTeacher

We censor quite a bit of Shakespeare if we’re teaching younger children. We don’t teach young children Chaucer and the allusions to sex go over the heads of children anyway, as they tend not to understand 13th century bawdy jokes.

If you are saying Shakespeare is comparable to talking about kids “cumming” and “sucking cock”, I say that is obviously a bad faith comparison.

So it's ok to use allusions to sex so long as they 'tend to' go over the kids heads? And is it your opinion about whether these allusions will go over the kids heads? What criteria do you base that decision on? Would it stand up to scrutiny because it's still sexual language and it's still safeguarding no matter what words are used even if it does 'go over their heads'.

And C16th sex jokes and racism are fine because it's old?

Does that mean we just need to give it a few years and you won't have a problem with this book because language and meaning will have moved on again?

Fulmine:

No. ‘Because an MP thinks it, it’s good’ is a ridiculous argument.

‘So it's ok to use allusions to sex so long as they 'tend to' go over the kids heads? And is it your opinion about whether these allusions will go over the kids heads? What criteria do you base that decision on? Would it stand up to scrutiny because it's still sexual language and it's still safeguarding no matter what words are used even if it does 'go over their head’

Allusions aren’t explicit. That’s the point of allusions.

And like everyone else, I use my own judgment and safeguarding policies and the law. I’m happy my decisions would stand up to scrutiny.

Obviously I think it’s fine to teach A Midsummer Night’s Dream. I still don’t think it’s okay to talk about children having things shoved up their bums, or sucking cock, or “cumming”.

If you can’t tell there are degrees of things, and use that principle to make appropriate judgments about the extent to which children should be exposed to sexual content, you shouldn’t get to make those decisions.

What you are saying basically comes down to:

You think your opinions and decisions are sound:
''And like everyone else, I use my own judgment and safeguarding policies and the law.''

You don't think anyone else should be able to use their judgement despite these things being taken into account:
''you shouldn’t get to make those decisions.''

Who does make the decisions? How should those decisions be made? I've told you how it works currently. You tell me how we should decide on stock for the school library. Or should we not have a school library and children should only be reading set texts?

Rhubarb

I’ve already supported my view with statutory guidance. CSE is not a minor issue. Sexualising children is against the law. Yes, I think I’m right and you are wrong in this case. I think people with judgment more in line with safeguarding norms should choose the books.

That’s as far as we’re going to get.

@tabbycatstripy

Rhubarb

I’ve already supported my view with statutory guidance. CSE is not a minor issue. Sexualising children is against the law. Yes, I think I’m right and you are wrong in this case. I think people with judgment more in line with safeguarding norms should choose the books.

That’s as far as we’re going to get.

Right. I understand now. You missed the bit where I said that we choose books with a selection criteria which includes CSE legislation and that has been agreed by the head and governors and (if they want to) teachers.

So, please tell me how you think that books should be selected for school libraries. Or give examples of the types of books that you think should be stocked. Constructive feedback to libraries is always welcome.

I want to stress that these are serious questions. Having a teacher that is interested in the workings of the school library is marvellous.

As I’ve already said, policies can be written by people with poor judgment, or they can be undermined over time, or poorly understood, or ignored, or wilfully distorted. This happens all the time.

And they can be changed.

‘Having a teacher that is interested in the workings of the school library is marvellous.’

Of course I’m interested. People shouldn’t work in silos. What children are allowed to read is everyone’s responsibility because safeguarding is everyone’s responsibility.

But again, we’re not going to get much further in this discussion I think. And I’ve made my opinion more than clear!

Back to work.

So, please tell me how you like to see book selection taking place and the examples of the types of books you would like to see in a senior school library.

Okay, I’ll bite again (I shouldn’t).

It’s not so much about the selection in the first place. I don’t think librarians can reasonably be blamed if a book marketed at middle grade or YA arrives and it turns out to have inappropriate content in. They can’t personally read every book in the library.

It’s about the response. When the content receives a complaint, I’d like to see a more considered response from the people who put it on the shelf, and I would like to be confident that it was done in error. I would like the librarian to go back to a rigorous safeguarding policy that makes it abundantly clear that explicit sexual content isn’t suitable for children under 16, and I would like to see that they are able to view content like this in an unbiased way, acknowledging that yes, this is clearly highly explicit, and not trying to make excuses because of inclusion, or because Chaucer sometimes says cock.

I just want to see some adult professional judgment.

Librarians do read a vast number of books on their selves especially ones that deal with more mature subject matter. Librarians ARE responsible for their decisions and ensuring the content is suitable.

If the librarian had responded and it was shown that the book had been read, considered as to how it fits into the collection, that selection was based on agreed criteria that all teachers, parents and governors had been able to view and comment on and shown that considered as a whole book it was fitting to have it in the library, would you accept that decision? Or would it still be you opinion that the librarian was wrong?

I agree it’s inappropriate for children of that age.
If my sons’ schools are representative of the UK everyone is very accepting and it would be very shocking to read this as it in no way reflects modern attitudes towards gay people, it seems old fashioned.
I’m sure some areas do still have homophobic attitudes but it no way represents the mainstream viewpoint of modern children.
I feel it would be offensive for a gay child to read these things at a young age.

‘ If the librarian had responded and it was shown that the book had been read, considered as to how it fits into the collection, that selection was based on agreed criteria that all teachers, parents and governors had been able to view and comment on and shown that considered as a whole book it was fitting to have it in the library, would you accept that decision? Or would it still be you opinion that the librarian was wrong?’

I’m never going to think the passage is okay for young teens. If the criteria lets it through, the criteria need to be updated. Because the law puts safeguarding first and doesn’t allow schools to expose children to this sort of gratuitous sexualised material.

So yes, I’d think they were still wrong.