Why are any schools allowing this in their libraries?

[tabbycatstripy]

There was a mini scandal over a Catholic school in Southwark last month, with complaints to the Archbishop from a Tory MP (Eliot Colburn), after an invitation to a writer to come and promote his books and talk to the kids was withdrawn because his books were judged by the diocese to be ‘outside what is permissible in a Catholic school’. Complaints were made to Ofsted, the governors were dismissed by the diocese, and apparently the HT, who wanted the visit to go ahead, was at odds with the church.

So far so normal.

Twitter then went crazy in support of this writer, saying the books were lovely, fun, inclusive, with hardly any sexual content, and it was all so homophobic.

Anyway, I just saw an extract from the book:

twitter.com/dolphinmaria/status/1503490597931339785?s=21&t=0ZURhjXM1Ln6esoraw6Ilw

Why does a Tory MP (or any adult) think this content is suitable for adolescents?

Why is any librarian placing books in KS3 collections that talk this explicitly about (and trivialise) anal sex, oral sex, and porn?

Not a physically different KS5 library (usually, although I have seen that in at least three schools), but usually a completely different section from KS3/4.

And this book (if you look at the marketing and summary) really isn’t marketed at KS5. Even 14 year olds in Y9 are still KS3.

My concern with the argument you are making is that it doesn’t only call for a degree of trust before something occurs that throws that trust into question. It asks me to place my faith in their professionalism afterwards as well.

No, it doesn't. If, say, a doctor does something totally incompetent no-one expects it to be ignored.

If a school employs a qualified librarian with due diligence as to references etc, then of course they should trust them to do their jobs. If evidence comes to light that they can't be trusted, then they should probably be trusted. But it would be completely wrong for a load of non-professionals to say "We trust you do to your job and exercise your judgment, but we can't trust you when it comes to books that mention sex and homosexuality."

But this is exactly the issue, Fulmine. This book has ‘come to light’, and what is being suggested to me isn’t that I should (before being aware of any issue) trust the professional in front of me. I do that every day and it’s right. What is being suggested is, because the people who are selecting this book that I think is outright inappropriate for its target market are professionals (which I am, too, by the way) I should defer to their assessment of this individual book.

And that’s silly.

And this book (if you look at the marketing and summary) really isn’t marketed at KS5. Even 14 year olds in Y9 are still KS3.

It's not a marketing issue. Who "markets" Shakespeare, Dickens, Austen, the Brontes, du Maurier, Forster etc?

For what it's worth, I had covered KS4 and started KS5 before my 15th birthday, and I wasn't the only one in my year group. I haven't been irredeemably corrupted by it.

And when we talk about ‘non-professionals’, let’s not forget we are talking about parents, who know their child’s maturity levels and (often) know the law as well. It’s inappropriate to choose not to listen to parents.

Has it actually been established that this particular book was in the library of the school in question and available to 11 year olds?

‘For what it's worth, I had covered KS4 and started KS5 before my 15th birthday, and I wasn't the only one in my year group. I haven't been irredeemably corrupted by it.’

Did any of that material talk about penetrating children with objects or penises?

‘Has it actually been established that this particular book was in the library of the school in question and available to 11 year olds?’

No, and I didn’t say it had. I said (based on my observations of the whole situation) that some librarians clearly are buying it and clearly are suggesting it has little or no sexual content in it.

We trust you do to your job and exercise your judgment, but we can't trust you when it comes to books that mention sex and homosexuality."

Many schools won't have a trained librarian to take such decisions.

@Fulmine

Has it actually been established that this particular book was in the library of the school in question and available to 11 year olds?

I don’t think it has, no. FWIW I definitely wouldn’t want 11 year olds reading this. My issue is precisely that I believe school libraries must have books that are unsuitable for some ages if they are to cater to all ages. This does of course require a competent librarian. If a particular school has no facility to regulate books, then I guess those schools can only carry Biff and Chip in their library. However, most secondary school libraries will have a) a librarian and b) a full range of books for different ages.

@334bu

*We trust you do to your job and exercise your judgment, but we can't trust you when it comes to books that mention sex and homosexuality."*

Many schools won't have a trained librarian to take such decisions.

But they have trained teachers. Can you point to any school which literally fails to exercise any control over what is in their library or which books are available to which age groups?

Also, though, can we move away from ‘mentions homosexuality’? The whole point is that this has nothing to do with homosexuality, and the fact that the book is ‘inclusive’ is being used to downplay the fact that it contains inappropriate sexual content, not inappropriate homosexual content.

If the book contained a sweet gay romance between two 14 year olds and they kissed and engaged in normal teenage behaviour as a couple, I would celebrate it.

I wouldn't want my y8 to come across this language. I would want him to come across a positive depiction of gay relationships and dealing with bullying. Which as I witnessed plenty of actual homophobic bullying back when I was at school without explicit language being involved doesn't seem difficult to do. Though as DS is still in the "yeuch, kissing" stage he would avoid any book /about/ relationships anyway.

The thing that's really bothering me in this thread is the insistence that professional judgement is not to be questioned. As a professional in a different field we are trained to positively welcome and seek out and engage with challenge to our views. It makes the outcome more robust. Standing on the dignity of your professional judgement and your guidelines is not in my view a professional attitude, it's an insecure one.

@tabbycatstripy

Also, though, can we move away from ‘mentions homosexuality’? The whole point is that this has nothing to do with homosexuality, and the fact that the book is ‘inclusive’ is being used to downplay the fact that it contains inappropriate sexual content, not inappropriate homosexual content.

If the book contained a sweet gay romance between two 14 year olds and they kissed and engaged in normal teenage behaviour as a couple, I would celebrate it.

The whole point is that this has nothing to do with homosexuality

Have you read the complaints people made?

No, and I didn’t say it had. I said (based on my observations of the whole situation) that some librarians clearly are buying it and clearly are suggesting it has little or no sexual content in it.

Is there any evidence that school librarians generally are allowing 11 year olds to take this book out?

If you don't teach children anything about the Holocaust until they are 14, they will have already found out about it in other ways, possibly very inappropriate. The first time I ever heard about the Holocaust was an offensive joke (which I had to have explained to me) told in the primary school playground (the same joke which Harriet Harman was criticized for referring to on Andrew Neil's politics show on TV a few years back).

As to the school which cancelled the visit by Simon James Green, and sacked the governors who had supported the visit, it seems clear from the words of the school chaplain (that the visit was about "promoting the literature of a lifestyle choice that is contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ") that this was done because they think homosexuality is wrong/sinful. So I would agree with the complaint made to the Archdiocese of Southwark by Elliot Colburn MP.

I personally find it very hard to judge what is appropriate sexual content and language in books for children of different ages. For example, when I was 16 I would not have read a book as explicit as "Normal People" but my daughter and her friends clearly thought it was a very normal thing to read at that age. Another example: "Keisha The Sket" has explicit descriptions of sex (including non-consensual) and appears to have been widely read by teenagers, it was actually written by a 13-year-old - I would have been shocked to read a book like this at that age, but does it not tackle some important issues in a way young people can relate to?

‘Have you read the complaints people made?’

Their complaints aren’t my complaint. This is a distraction. I don’t have an issue with the fact that the book is about a gay kid.

‘So I would agree with the complaint made to the Archdiocese of Southwark by Elliot Colburn MP.’

Again, separate issue, but the Catholic Church does take issue with homosexual behaviour from a religious perspective and the parents and school are meant to uphold that ethos.

But it has nothing to do with what I’m saying.

‘Another example: "Keisha The Sket" has explicit descriptions of sex (including non-consensual) and appears to have been widely read by teenagers, it was actually written by a 13-year-old - I would have been shocked to read a book like this at that age, but does it not tackle some important issues in a way young people can relate to?’

I don’t know, haven’t read it. But from the sounds of it, not suitable for children.

I don’t deny, by the way, that some children are sexualised. If a 13 year old wrote a book about non-consensual and explicit sex, I’d ask what was happening in her life that led her to do so, and I wouldn’t give it to other 13 year olds.

As far as I can see, the complaint from OP is that the language of the book is inappropriate for 11 year olds. This seems to be true.

But whilst OP then says ‘therefore it cannot be in a school library in case there is not proper regulation’, many of us instead say ‘therefore this book, in common with the very many other books that are unsuitable for 11 year olds but perfectly suitable for 16 year olds, should be regulated with care.’

With respect, OP’s argument seems a bit straw-man-ish… “What of the librarian is incompetent?” And then the other poster with “What if there isn’t a librarian?”

The bottom line is that there will be books too graphic for the very youngest students in a school library that caters to 11-18 year olds. This book isn’t the only one. Why the fuss about this one? Became some catholics objected to the homosexuality. You may object on different grounds OP, but the only reason we’re discussing this and not, say, Black Watch, is the homosexuality.

This has nothing to do with homosexuality (that may be why the book came to my attention but my entire point is that this ISN’T about the homosexual content, but that the fact that the book is presented as inclusive is the reason some people are downplaying the sexual content, and that is an issue.

And I am not saying it’s inappropriate only for 11 year olds. I am saying this specific content would be inappropriate (in my opinion) for a professional to hand to any student under 16.

And it is definitely being marketed and selected in that way.

But show me similar content in other books that aren’t marketed as ‘inclusive’ and I am sure I will apply the same standard.

But show me similar content in other books that aren’t marketed as ‘inclusive’ and I am sure I will apply the same standard.

You’re going to be very busy then, OP! I hate to break it to you, but there are hundreds of books for adolescents absolutely riddled with references to porn, to orgasms, arses - all sorts!

For someone who says they work in a school, you seem very ill-informed about what might be lurking in the library!

So this entire thread isn’t about that specific book and its author; it’s about your shock that some books in a school library will contain shocking material, which needs to be regulated for the ages of those reading it.

'Again, separate issue, but the Catholic Church does take issue with homosexual behaviour from a religious perspective and the parents and school are meant to uphold that ethos.'

I'm not sure I understand how the parents and the school could "uphold the ethos" of "taking issue with homosexual behaviour from a religious perspective" without impacting negatively on children at the school who are gay.

‘You’re going to be very busy then, OP! I hate to break it to you, but there are hundreds of books for adolescents absolutely riddled with references to porn, to orgasms, arses - all sorts!’

I think you are missing my point about graduated references. I don’t have an issue with (for example) a 14 year old reading about orgasms. I have an issue with the trivialising slang term “come” for children (including 14 year olds), but again, if it came up once in a novel I might think “oh dear” but judge the rest of the content to be appropriate. This entire passage is explicit. It includes several very explicit references. And if there are other books like that in a school library, that is also an issue.

‘So this entire thread isn’t about that specific book and its author; it’s about your shock that some books in a school library will contain shocking material, which needs to be regulated for the ages of those reading it.’

It’s not about the author. It’s about the book. But again, if you show me other books with this level of sexualised content in, being marketed and discussed in this way, I will have the same opinion about them.

‘ I'm not sure I understand how the parents and the school could "uphold the ethos" of "taking issue with homosexual behaviour from a religious perspective" without impacting negatively on children at the school who are gay.’

That may well be true. It doesn’t change the obligations of the school and the staff. They agree to them when they join a Catholic school.

(And no, that doesn’t mean Catholic schools teach any negative ideas about homosexuality. But it does mean they can choose not to present materials that - like this book - mock Christianity and contain explicit gay sex. That’s faith schools. Some people don’t agree with faith schools and I get that, but they exist and they have obligations to uphold the ethos of their faith.)