The Boodleoops question

[WarriorN]

Laurie Penny asks:

"Fascinated to know the answer to this one. Can any ‘Gender Critical’ activists name any parts of society where they think it’s ok for people to be openly trans? Political institutions? Universities? Hospitals? Schools? The media? Can you name three places trans people DO belong?"

Becca answers:

"Can you name a single space where you think it’s ok for female people to be without male people? Prisons? Hospitals? Domestic violence shelters? Female sports? Changing facilities? Can you name even ONE place where male people don’t belong?"

Credit to @ Debbbooo on twitter for naming this the @ boodleoops question.

twitter.com/pennyred/status/1513230026736640000?s=21&t=JPO7uaPLlSJjBRFT7TVEfQ

And

twitter.com/boodleoops/status/1513245325183655937?s=21&t=JPO7uaPLlSJjBRFT7TVEfQ

Be openly trans. Just don't lie about it.

Bloody stupid woman. Sorry Laurie dear, but many of us "GCs" have answered that question a squillion times

Be trans. Who cares? It's only when a lie is demanded that anyone actually fucking cares.

If you want to construct a Gotcha! then you really should be honest about the perspective of your opponent. You make yourself look like a pillock otherwise.

Be openly trans everywhere. Just don’t expect me to think it changes your biology, and don’t expect me to pretend it gives you access to spaces people with your biology don’t get to be.

To be honest most trans people are openly trans because (nearly all of one sex) do not pass.

Being openly trans everywhere is fine. I presume ‘openly’ means everyone knows what your sex and your gender identity are. If this place has single sex facilities then I think you should use those of your sex, which if you are openly trans would be fine.

I can think of many places where it would also be fine to present as your chosen gender identity and take the view that no one will know what your actual sex is, and you don’t want them to know. That is also fine, with a number of exceptions for example:
Roles where someone has asked for or presumed that they are getting a same sex environment (strip searches, mammograms, rape counselling etc).

I am very sympathetic that the lack of mixed sex facilities make being ‘not openly trans’ more difficult. I support mixed sex facilities being provided alongside single sex ones.

@Agrona

To be honest most trans people are openly trans because (nearly all of one sex) do not pass.

Exactly.

The comical thing about Penny's question is that most trans people don't want to be openly trans - they want to pass. Having to declare at every turn that they are trans would be very upsetting.

In the way that's beloved of trans activists, "ok for people to be openly trans" and "belong" will have special and fluid meanings, and most likely ones that require onlookers to think only in approved ways.

In fact, if we think about the latest hight profile person who came out as openly trans, that would be Jamie Wallis MP, and that was in politics. How did that go for him? What was the response from those around him?

Is Laurie thick or deliberately disingenuous?

It's a great question.

Much like the Staniland question but longer!

Slight derail, but I always find it a bit ridiculous when news reports refer to someone as "openly trans", e.g "the first openly trans swimmer/cyclist/MP..." As if there have been loads of "in the closet" transwomen in women's swimming or the corridors of Westminster for years and we just never noticed!

It's just a really obvious example of borrowing language used to describe homosexuality and trying to apply it to transgenderism. You can't look at someone and tell if they're gay, but it's bloody obvious if someone is trans

As if there have been loads of "in the closet" transwomen in women's swimming or the corridors of Westminster for years and we just never noticed!

There might be. Who knows how many male MPs cross dress in private? Crossdressing is under Stonewall's trans umbrella.

And we'd never have known that Jamie Wallis was trans (or 'wants to be trans') if he hadn't told us.

Ed Davey said on TV that there was nowhere biological males shouldn't be allowed to go. I don't think he understood the question and wasn't pushed on it. Someone with a better memory than me might have a link?

@sharksarecool

Slight derail, but I always find it a bit ridiculous when news reports refer to someone as "openly trans", e.g "the first openly trans swimmer/cyclist/MP..." As if there have been loads of "in the closet" transwomen in women's swimming or the corridors of Westminster for years and we just never noticed!

It's just a really obvious example of borrowing language used to describe homosexuality and trying to apply it to transgenderism. You can't look at someone and tell if they're gay, but it's bloody obvious if someone is trans

Yes, exactly this.

It's not about being open, it's about forcing yourself into womens spaces, onto women.

It's about boundaries.

It was a bit of a cliche when I was young - men in high social positions with suspenders and silky undies on under their uniforms or judicial robes. Unlike now, we did not confuse or conflate that, which we recognised as what you might call bedroom activity ('get a room', as they say these days), with those who felt more affinity with the opposite sex, were often homosexual, and wanted to properly live as far as was possible as the opposite sex, like April Ashley.

@Fenlandia

Ed Davey said on TV that there was nowhere biological males shouldn't be allowed to go. I don't think he understood the question and wasn't pushed on it. Someone with a better memory than me might have a link?

It was radio 4 if this is what you're thinking of?

twitter.com/Rootsy62654547/status/1438793246449315851

Having just listened to it again, how bloody annoying that when Justin asks about safe spaces for women, Ed immediately goes into Trans rights mode.

@OldCrone

As if there have been loads of "in the closet" transwomen in women's swimming or the corridors of Westminster for years and we just never noticed!

There might be. Who knows how many male MPs cross dress in private? Crossdressing is under Stonewall's trans umbrella.

And we'd never have known that Jamie Wallis was trans (or 'wants to be trans') if he hadn't told us.

The language is designed to convince us that loads of people who we think are women are going around eg in our sports and other spaces, but actually they're penis people who are not "openly trans".

It's not to imply that loads of men secretly crossdress, although that's probably closer to the truth.

Can any ‘Gender Critical’ activists name any parts of society where they think it’s ok for people to be openly trans? Political institutions? Universities? Hospitals? Schools? The media? Can you name three places trans people DO belong?

Trans people belong in all these places and should be fully accepted as themselves and able to thrive in all these places. There should be no discrimination or lack of acceptance for anyone who is trans. Being openly trans should be very much welcomed. No one should have to hide who they are or be constrained by traditional cultural expectations of how their sex ought to behave or dress.

That's a totally separate issue from the validity of having some resources, opportunities and spaces that are single sex, where these are a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. There are numerous examples of reasonable legitimate aims in the recent EHRC report.

Valid and wonderful and worthy and fully and gloriously human as they are, no trans person actually changes their physical actual sex and they remain a category within their own sex as members of that sex. That doesn't make them any less valid and wonderful and worthy and fully and gloriously human. It does mean they do not get to access resources, opportunities and spaces that are reserved for members of the opposite sex under a legitimate aim such as those examples from the EHRC. It does mean that they should be fully able to access any resources, opportunities and spaces that are reserved for members of their own sex under a legitimate aim, so making sure that "women only" options are open to including transmen, as they are biologically female and still experience sexism when they are recognised as female.

Thanks NancyDrawed, I could have sworn it was on TV and I'd seen his irritating pious gob say those words

He might well have said the same on TV too, Fenlandia but I couldn't find anything.

Irritating either way.

Can you name three places trans people DO belong?"

Trans people belong everywhere.

And there are a few areas where segregation by sex is justifiable. (Trans still belong)
Can you name three LP?