Am I wrong to bring women’s rights into a council election

[Fancyfencepost]

Just had a visit from the local councillor asking for my vote. I said that I couldn’t vote for any party who didn’t support women. The response, “ this is about the council, not that, about bin collections and road repairs.” Think I might have thrown him a wee bit but surely he could have had a better answer?

Well someone on here sounds rather unhinged. Probably not worth engaging with. Think Bunbury and onwards!

Thank you @vivariumvivariumsvivaria for reading my post.

I don't know; they banned me from the group so I can't see the group or its posts.

All I achieved with my post:

1. I have put a target on my back

1. It's a lesson to other women in that group not to mentioned women's rights.

@Maskless, I'm so sorry that has happened to you. Sounds like harassment.

@NoHateOnlyDebate

Jesus, this thread is a collection of hate, and bad takes.

Do you all really think that trans women are the biggest local issue, even the biggest issue nationally?

No canvasser is going to report any of this back, and will flag you as a house not to return to. Although, I'm sure some parties will be more than happy to have your vote, generally right wing, to far-right wing. If that's the bed you want to sleep in, that's on you.

If I am going door to door, I'm not going to stand, and listen to someone talking about toilet police, or removing safe areas for trans people who have been raped, or listen to various conspiracy theories. I'm walking off, and telling my collegues to avoid your house.

Most of you have probably, at some point, shared a public toilet with a trans woman, without knowing, and without anything negative happening, yet for some reason, you are in panic.

"Do you all really think that trans women are the biggest local issue, even the biggest issue nationally?"

It is to some of us.

"Most of you have probably, at some point, shared a public toilet with a trans woman"

I have with loads over the decades. They appeared to be the old school ts/post op variety. I personally don't mind BUT when it comes to the retention of the penis, and men with beards etc demanding entry to every safe spaces, that is something completely different.

My angle is much more the engagement with politics generally, rather than this single issue. So ....

It's a shame that all the people that have suddenly found it really clever to ask political parties "What is a woman ?" now, when it's pretty much too late. Where were you 10, 15, 20 years ago when all of this so called "debate" was sneaking in to all political parties ? Because that was the time to stop it. Not now by badgering some poor bewildered volunteer whose main aim in life is to move a bus route, restore bin collections and keep a library open.

@Maskless

Thank you *@vivariumvivariumsvivaria* for reading my post.

I don't know; they banned me from the group so I can't see the group or its posts.

All I achieved with my post:

1. I have put a target on my back

1. It's a lesson to other women in that group not to mentioned women's rights.

Yes, it's achieved a chilling effect and yet again achieved preference falsification by moving women off social media platforms.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

If I am going door to door, I'm not going to stand, and listen to someone talking about toilet police, or removing safe areas for trans people who have been raped, or listen to various conspiracy theories. I'm walking off, and telling my collegues to avoid your house.

You're absolutely right. You won't hear any of that. You'll hear the questions given above about single sex spaces and facilities.

Any conspiracy theories are of your own imagination.

Depending on how you inform your colleagues and the content of that information, I wonder if you're actively discriminating and encouraging discrimination against people who have a protected characteristic, i.e., a gender critical belief that is WORIADS.

Are you refering to these questions per chance? - women-uniting.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/RespectMySex-doorstep-questions.pdf

Asking "What is a woman?" has nothing to do with local issues, and is a question designed to cause problems, it's like asking "What is a chair?", you can define the word all you want, but will end up in knots, unless you give the answer that the person wants to hear. You want to hear "Adult human female" but then if I ask you to define "Adult", which changes country to country, culture to culture.

The second question, what's more important, sex or gender? How about nither, equality is more important. But this point mentions the toilet issue, and rape crisis centres, both of which you told me that I "won't hear any of that", yet here we are, into the second question on the cribsheet.

It also mentions science denial, what science is being denied? Also, establish language? You are aware that English is not a policed language, words change all the time, new words come in, words fade out of useage. If there was established language, we'd all still be speaking an old Germanic language!

Question the third, back onto toilets (I thought you said I won't hear any of this!), you are aware that the gender neutral toilets designed in Bognor Regis are individual units? It's not one massive unit. Also, if you aren't a fan of gender neutral toilets, you may wish to cross off a few European nations from possible trips!

Also, single sex parks, and playgrounds, now we are just getting into segregation against a protected characteristic.

Final question, it's the old "THINK OF THE CHILDREN" trope, point the first on there, why shouldn't kids be given knowladge about something they might be feeling? What if a child does think they are not a boy, or not a girl? Do you leave that child to feel shame for their thoughts, and not know where to turn?

I also don't see an issue with drag queen story time if it's properly managed, enhanced DBS checks and all. There was one local authority that I remember reading about who did not do their research on the group they hired, the fault was on the group, not the drag act.

There are some great drag acts out there, and don't forget that AFAB women do also do drag, that might be a shock to some, but it is very much factual. And kids love dress up, so if it's all tasteful, and age appropriate, what is the issue?

@NoHateOnlyDebate

Jesus, this thread is a collection of hate, and bad takes.

Do you all really think that trans women are the biggest local issue, even the biggest issue nationally?

No canvasser is going to report any of this back, and will flag you as a house not to return to. Although, I'm sure some parties will be more than happy to have your vote, generally right wing, to far-right wing. If that's the bed you want to sleep in, that's on you.

If I am going door to door, I'm not going to stand, and listen to someone talking about toilet police, or removing safe areas for trans people who have been raped, or listen to various conspiracy theories. I'm walking off, and telling my collegues to avoid your house.

Most of you have probably, at some point, shared a public toilet with a trans woman, without knowing, and without anything negative happening, yet for some reason, you are in panic.

If I am going door to door, I'm not going to stand, and listen to someone talking about toilet police, or removing safe areas for trans people who have been raped, or listen to various conspiracy theories. I'm walking off, and telling my collegues to avoid your house.

• no one wants 'toilet police'. I and others want single-sex facilities so no one need worry about policing them.
• I (and I think others) very much want safe and effective spaces and mechanisms for trans people who have been raped, and for you to suggest otherwise is pretty offensive. I simply want them to be separate from women's single-sex spaces and mechanisms in this area.

Any canvasser worth their salt will assume that a householder with these concerns may well not vote for their party, and so will certainly report back.

If a canvasser walks off while they and I are having a discussion, that's an automatic 'no vote' for that party from me. Again, I think I'm probably not alone here.

I'm sorry @DameHelena, but I have seen many GC people ask for toilet policing, you might not, but they are out there. I will have to ask though, how would you be able to enforce a single-sex toilet? Or changing room? Like my final point in that quote, you have probably already shared a public, single-sex space, with a trans woman without knowing.

Asking "What is a woman?" has nothing to do with local issues
It does, as already covered here. It goes to issues of same-sex provision.

It's like asking "What is a chair?", you can define the word all you want, but will end up in knots, unless you give the answer that the person wants to hear.
It's not what the person wants to hear, it's simple fact.
You want to hear "Adult human female" but then if I ask you to define "Adult", which changes country to country, culture to culture.
But we're talking about the UK. And in many 'cultures' represented in the UK, women cannot use mixed-sex spaces.

The second question, what's more important, sex or gender? Sex. Because anyone can gender themselves how they like; but sex matters, physically and in terms of how we're all socialised. Also, in a public health/safety context, sex is a necessarily broad-brush way of minimising things like attacks and harassment.

It also mentions science denial, what science is being denied? 'Trans women are women' is denying science in itself. I've also seen people on SM talking about, for example, having a 'non-binary body that happens to menstruate', which makes no scientific sense.

You are aware that English is not a policed language, words change all the time, new words come in, words fade out of useage. There is fading and then there is concerted effort to change the meanings of words (woman being an obvious one) or eradicate them entirely (by the use of e.g. 'bleeders' or 'birthing parent').

Also, single sex parks, and playgrounds, now we are just getting into segregation against a protected characteristic.
Disingenuous. The question references 'single-sex spaces in parks, playgrounds and swimming pools' – it meanstoilets/changing rooms etc in these facilities.

why shouldn't kids be given knowladge about something they might be feeling? What if a child does think they are not a boy, or not a girl? Do you leave that child to feel shame for their thoughts, and not know where to turn?
Have you read the Cass interim report? There is discussion on the possibility of approaches other than the purely affirmative one. Not 'shaming' a child, no, but exploring what they're saying and why.

I also don't see an issue with drag queen story time if it's properly managed, enhanced DBS checks and all. There was one local authority that I remember reading about who did not do their research on the group they hired, the fault was on the group, not the drag act.
I don't have an argument with this in itself. Unfortunately though, in the wider context of (factions of) the trans rights movement, it is quite possible to view drag queen story time as a bit of a Trojan horse.

@NoHateOnlyDebate

I'm sorry *@DameHelena*, but I have seen many GC people ask for toilet policing, you might not, but they are out there. I will have to ask though, how would you be able to enforce a single-sex toilet? Or changing room? Like my final point in that quote, you have probably already shared a public, single-sex space, with a trans woman without knowing.

It is a good question actually. Basically the genie is out of the bottle; the social 'norm' and shared understanding has until recently largely kept public loos etc single-sex (I once, in a jet-lag haze, followed a man towards the gents in an airport; he whipped round and stared at me in horror. It made me realise my mistake ).

I have to say, though, the argument 'you have probably already shared a public, single-sex space, with a trans woman without knowing' is not a winner: a) Women have never been asked if they wanted this and b) trans women may not 'pass' but may not be challenged by women in a public loo because for one, women are socialised not to make a fuss and, for another, women are generally very aware of size/strength discrepancies between them and a man and will ignore/avoid rather than challenge.

@NoHateOnlyDebate

I'm sorry *@DameHelena*, but I have seen many GC people ask for toilet policing, you might not, but they are out there. I will have to ask though, how would you be able to enforce a single-sex toilet? Or changing room? Like my final point in that quote, you have probably already shared a public, single-sex space, with a trans woman without knowing.

Chinny reckon for the first point.

How interesting that you're now asking questions that you know have been answered multiple times in multiple threads on this board as a deflection rather than engage in the discussion.

@DameHelena I'm sorry, again, you are making an assumption that no trans woman "passes" as a women, which simply isn't true. There are also AFAB women who do not conform to gender norms, some may appear to look like men.

I can also tell you, that I have not been socialised to not make a fuss, or maybe I have, but because I have various issues with mental health, I don't care about making a fuss.

If another woman in the toilet said to me that I don't look like I woman, maybe I should whip out that opening question of "What is a woman?" then they say "Adult female human", to which I go "Yes, that's me". Or maybe I should go with "Look, if I was trans, do you really believe I would have made a decision to dress like this?".

I mean, there are some very beautiful trans women out there, some that I wouldn't have known without them saying.

To say that you, I, or any other woman can spot a trans woman based on size/strength, or other charactistics that are typical of men is not going to get you very far in spotting all trans women. You will also end up catching gender non-conforming women, and butch lesbians into your net, as well as letting more feminine, small frame, trans women through.

So I can say with certainty, that you have come across a trans woman, who you didn't know was trans. You may even have come across a trans man, who you didn't know was trans.

As for your point a, if I was asked, I'd say I don't care, trans women are welcome in the ladies loo.

inews.co.uk/news/uk/butch-lesbian-public-toilet-women-abuse-government-review-gender-neutral-facilities-833787

fatherteresablog.wordpress.com/2015/11/09/cis-woman-accused-of-being-a-boy-was-manhandled-and-kicked-out-of-a-womens-bathroom-sues/

transgriot.com/cis-woman-misgendered-in-detroit/

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/woman-booked-miami-men-s-jail-after-wrongly-deemed-transgender-n943626

OK, that last post is not always coherent but I'll answer what I think I can:

you are making an assumption that no trans woman "passes" as a women
No I'm not. Saying as I did that 'trans women may not 'pass' doesn't mean ALL trans women.

because I have various issues with mental health, I don't care about making a fuss. OK, great for you. Not all other people benefit from this.

*So I can say with certainty, that you have come across a trans woman, who you didn't know was trans. You may even have come across a trans man, who you didn't know was trans.

So I can say with certainty, that you have come across a trans woman, who you didn't know was trans. You may even have come across a trans man, who you didn't know was trans. As I've said, yes, to a point that genie is out of the bottle. You can refer back to my previous post on this.

As for your point a, if I was asked, I'd say I don't care, trans women are welcome in the ladies loo.
Beside the point. Many women do not (or cannot, in certain religious/cultural groups, and among women who have been assaulted/traumatised by men) feel the same as you. Should legislation reflect only your personal preferences?

I'd be interested in your responses to some of my other points. The drag queen/Cass report/language issues particularly can bear more discussion.

*No canvasser is going to report any of this back, and will flag you as a house not to return to. Although, I'm sure some parties will be more than happy to have your vote, generally right wing, to far-right wing. If that's the bed you want to sleep in, that's on you.

If I am going door to door, I'm not going to stand, and listen to someone talking about toilet police, or removing safe areas for trans people who have been raped, or listen to various conspiracy theories. I'm walking off, and telling my collegues to avoid your house.*

---

Can you really not see the problem with this stance?

As a canvasser you're role is to listen to the perspective of the electorate and feed that back.

It's not for you to decide what perspectives are worthy of your time. Nor to assume that because someone is GC that they are automatically right wing.

You're also incredibly swift to jump to an anti trans perspective (removing safe spaces) without consideration of the safe spaces you are excluding women from - oh the irony....

Your post sums up exactly why I left the Labour Party after being a long-standing member.

A toxic culture prevails where "wrong think" is shut down and an attitude of moral superiority reigns that denigrates and dismisses members of the electorate that are not 100% bought into the narrative you think we should subscribe to.

By all means walk away from homes where people question policy, red flag them if you like, don't tell your party the feedback from the streets but be under no illusions that you've done anything but a disservice to the party you are canvassing for, because those issues are not going away just because you've hidden the evidence of it.

Ah ye olde but you can never teellll. Oh but you can

I'm walking off, and telling my collegues to avoid your house.

I was a passionate remainer, I can see looking back that this sanctimonious attitude on that issue did a lot to deliver Brexit.

This isn't going to help you on what you see as a trans right situation.

Stay and listen. Try to put your version of what is happening as well but actually listen to what is being said to you. Engage with reality on the ground not what you wish reality was.

Thank you for reminding me. I have just downloaded the email and added in the fact that I can no longer vote for them because of their party's stance on what constitutes a woman. I also suggested they feed that back to the party.

@DameHelena

Beside the point. Many women do not (or cannot, in certain religious/cultural groups, and among women who have been assaulted/traumatised by men) feel the same as you.

See attached image for opinion polling for views on trans people. This shows that the majority of women polled do feel the same as me on this issue of toilets, as well as women's services. So should legislation reflect only your personal preferences, or the majority of women?

@BreadInCaptivity good job I'm not a Labour member then, maybe you'll vote for my party! ;)

good job I'm not a Labour member then, maybe you'll vote for my party!

Given what you've posted then no, that's not going to happen.

Irrespective who who you are canvassing for my point remains the same.

Reducing people who believe sex matters to conspiracy theorists is just ridiculous and derogatory.

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

Ah ye olde but you can never teellll. Oh but you can

You do know that we can't see people's bones by looking at them, right? Unless you have x-ray vision, which, great for you!

You do also know that there is a hell of a lot of varience, there are women who develop some male bone structures, and some men who develop some female bone structures.

There is also the role hormones play in bone development.

Just over 1,600 people? That's hardly massively definitive.
Anecdotally at least, some people, although if asked will say 'sure, why not' to mixed-sex changing rooms and loos etc, will then balk if you ask them how they feel about using a mixed facility themselves, or their child being faced with a mixed facility at school.
The reality of what it means doesn't seem to sink in when people are asked hypothetically.

I've just had a look at my local candidates. They represent the following parties:

• Alba Party
• SNP
• Scottish Family Party
• Liberal Democrats
• Scottish Green Party
• Conservative and Unionist Party

ARGH! Who is a GC woman supposed to vote for in amongst that lot?

@DameHelena

Just over 1,600 people? That's hardly massively definitive. Anecdotally at least, some people, although if asked will say 'sure, why not' to mixed-sex changing rooms and loos etc, will then balk if you ask them how they feel about using a mixed facility themselves, or their child being faced with a mixed facility at school. The reality of what it means doesn't seem to sink in when people are asked hypothetically.

You don't like the result, so you dismiss it out of hand, very rational take.

equality is more important.
This is a meaningless sound bite.
You can can legally use equality to support single sex spaces, therefore excluding trans people of the opposite biological sex.
Or
You could state that equality for you meant inclusion on gender ( not a current legally enforceable view in all situations) a view taken by many people.
To pretend there isn't an issue of competing rights is just childish and unhelpful. Because solutions won't be found when you can't be honest about the problems.