London public toilets report

[jumpedintwice]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed before - I tried doing a search but couldn't find it. This is the report published last November, following a public consultation on London's public toilets.

I responded to this survey, mentioning women's safety and need for single sex spaces. As far as I can see, there's no mention of women at all in the report, no mention of our dignity, privacy, fear of assaults (except for a general statement that toilets need to be 'safe'), no mention of protecting single sex spaces. But it does mention the needs of the 'small number' of trans people who responded for gender neutral toilets and also quotes Stonewall.

Did anyone else respond to this? It's hard to believe the issue of single sex facilities was so insignificant that those compiling the report decided not to mention it at all.

I responded similarly too. I think we need a FOI request.

Imagine my shock that London needed a consultation on this issue, and still hasn't figured out that the answer is obviously "If you are uncomfortable in the gendered loos, use the disabled one".

@JennyPourQuoi

Imagine my shock that London needed a consultation on this issue, and still hasn't figured out that the answer is obviously "If you are uncomfortable in the gendered loos, use the disabled one".

Really? Are disabled people's spaces yours to give away? Just like men decided women's spaces were theirs to give away?

I think we need a FOI request

I wondered about this, but wasn't sure what to ask for. Would the original responses be considered confidential under the survey's T&Cs?

Many people with medical conditions (such as epileptics) are safer in toilets with gaps in the bottom, in case they collapse and need attention quickly. I am surprised this isn’t mentioned. Where do you go when you feel ill in public?

Was this the one Edward Lord had a hand in? Because if so - unsurprising.

The chair of the Health Committee is Caroline Russell of the Green
Party. Here are her thoughts on yesterday's interview on R4 Today programmes interview by Nick Robinson. @SportIsARight is Rachel McKinnon / Veronica Ivy. (Ivy was not calm.)

twitter.com/CarolineRussell/status/1512702854011760640
Worth listening back to the interview on participation in women’s cycling on @BBCr4today. @SportIsARight calmly and clearly standing up to the awful othering of and discrimination against trans women.

@DomesticatedZombie

Was this the one Edward Lord had a hand in? Because if so - unsurprising.

Came here to ask the same question. Edward Lord who, despite identifying as non binary, has no hesitation about being a member of the men-only Freemasons. It's weird, how do they know who is a woman and who is a man when they discriminate in their applications? Surely they don't perform genital checks do they?

Exactly @JellySaurus and the 'if you feel uncomfortable is I imagine being directed at females'

Came here to ask the same question. Edward Lord who, despite identifying as non binary, has no hesitation about being a member of the men-only Freemasons. It's weird, how do they know who is a woman and who is a man when they discriminate in their applications? Surely they don't perform genital checks do they?

This is part and parcel of the current trend where all the losses are to be borne by the female sex and none by the male sex. The male sex is not losing the old names for their own sex, they are not losing sports stipends or places at the podium, they are not having to fear increasing voyeurism and possible sexual harassment in their public toilets from female predators who pretend to be trans men and so on.

I'd think the inconvenient tons of evidence have disappeared down the same dog that ate the Welsh parliament's equality impact assessment and the outcomes of the Scots govt consultation.

That dog is a bastard.

Or identifies as a shredder.

I did, and raised the same concerns as you OP.

Stonewall are a mafia it seems.

@JellySaurus - Disabled toilets are universally single user spaces and unisex spaces. There is no possibility of encountering a non-disabled person because there is no possibility of encountering anyone. Once you are inside no-one else can come in.

Why are you so desperate to be outraged?

@MichelleScarn

Exactly *@JellySaurus* and the 'if you feel uncomfortable is I imagine being directed at females'

No, it's being directed at transpeople. If they don't want to use the loo of their sex, then I have no problem with them using the disabled loo instead, as opposed to them forcing their way into the female toilets.

I can't see how you could possibly read my suggestion in such an obtuse way. Obviously I meant that transpeople have the option of the loo of their sex, or a unisex disabled space. How is that damaging women's rights?

@JennyPourQuoi that stance is the typical response to females though? Didn't quote you.
-girls not liking boys changing with them for pe at school, girls need to change elsewhere.

• don't like mixed sex changing rooms in shops, don't use them, try at home and return.

-don't like males in the female showers at the gym, don't come to the gym?

@Artichokeleaves

I'd think the inconvenient tons of evidence have disappeared down the same dog that ate the Welsh parliament's equality impact assessment and the outcomes of the Scots govt consultation.

That dog is a bastard.

I submitted a response to the Women and Equalities enquiry on GRA reform which was never published on their web-site. Can’t help wondering if it's a genuine “mistake” or some deliberate selection is going on.

A quick search of this document shows that:

• the words "woman" and "female" are not used once
• the word "women" is only used once about "trans women"

One would think there were absolutely no issues with sex equal provision or that women weren't more likely to be one of the "people with small children" or experience the effects of the urinary leash more or need toilet facilities more to deal with menstruation or the effects of the menopause.

Fucking shocking bias.

@JennyPourQuoi believe the argument about not giving away disabled toilets is not about female rights but disabled rights. There are a lot less disabled toilets than other toilets, yet you are proposing to give them away to non-disabled people because they identify as trans?

Obviously I meant that transpeople have the option of the loo of their sex, or a unisex disabled space. How is that damaging women's rights?

That damages disabled people's rights to services designated for them as a result of their protected characteristic in the same way that men saying that TW should use women's toilets people's damages women's rights to services designated for them as a result of their protected characteristic.

@JennyPourQuoi
I mean, thanks for generously giving away the already-inadequate facilities that disabled people campaigned so hard for, but despite the way they’re treated, disabled toilets are not a “convenient way to just ‘fix’ [insert issue here]” facility.

Not, I hasten to add, inadequate in any way because of the people who worked so hard to afford [other] disabled people the opportunity to be away from their homes outwith the constraints of their bowel & bladder control. But we have a government who were censured by the UN for violating the human rights of disabled people - & in amazing panto style, simply responded “oh no we didn’t!” (the landslide of evidence accompanying “oh yes you did!” has brought us to eat your gruel & be grateful damn you…) Rolling the DDA into the EA was absurd - disabled people’s needs conflict often enough to need guidance just on balancing that; & the loss of specific legislation gives the impression of things being vastly better than they are.

It’s bad enough that almost everywhere (obviously not referring to places with a single toilet for everyone) the baby change has been stuck into the disabled loo. Rarely at a height a wheelchair user can use it, naturally ; & the Changing Places facilities required for [older] children with disabilities are few & far between, too. I’ve been to places where, once staff have been located to unlock their disabled toilet (not Radar Key) they’ve then had to clear out the stuff they were storing in there. “Because we never really get, you know, people like you here…” was the Manager’s explanation as to why they’d turned the disabled loo into a store cupboard And while the chain they belonged to made all the right noises about that “experience”, you’ll find countless stories like that if you were to ask around.

There’s thread after thread on MN about “they’re called accessible toilets now because everyone is able to access them” & “it’s fine for me to use them because if someone DOES have to wait it’s just like if they had to wait for a disabled person” etc. Full of people turning up to tell each other they are absolutely right & it’s totally ok & not at all selfish.

Disabled toilets are not simply a convenient empty space. They are not places for people to get changed [with their friends], nor for men to defecate at leisure - NOR are they there to offer up as a “third space” for anyone who fancies excreting in splendid isolation.

If trans women don’t feel safe in the men’s loos that is an issue with male behaviour for men to fix. Just as it’s not ok for women’s loos to be made mixed sex to fix it; it’s not ok to turn the disabled loos into the “any random person who fancies it” toilets. They were campaigned for, are designed for, and are needed by, an actual vulnerable minority. We need more & better-equipped disabled loos - we don’t need yet more people identifying as needing to use the ones currently available.

Excellent post, @NitroNine. Spot on 👏

@Rights

Excellent post, *@NitroNine*. Spot on 👏

Absolutely!!!

NitroNine wish we had upvotes on Mumsnet.

Bravo NitroNine

It's the terra nullis argument we see male people use on female spaces: there's nothing going on in there that matters to me, it's not a group I know about or understand the issues of, so it's a space I can commandeer for something more useful.

Also reminds me of the attitude often seen on other boards here re disabled spaces on buses: they've been appropriated by parents with buggies and prams, and now you see entitled parents who insist a wheelchair user has to sit at the bus stop and wait through multiple buses to be allowed to get to work, because they cannot possibly move their shopping, fold their buggy and wake their toddler in order to clear the space it suits them to use.