How the hell did we get here?

[dropthevipers]

Just that really. My guess would be that the overwhelming majority of people would just laugh at the idea that Trans men become women (literally) by the magic of saying so. Yeah, right. It's as if a reborn cult around the flat earth idea suddenly gained widespread acceptance by people who otherwise appear intelligent and rational. Why wasn't this utter cobblers laughed out of town from the get go?

James Kirkup in the Spectator gives a clear explanation of the Denton's report that demonstrates how to influence social change on the quiet, behind close doors and without democratic scrutiny or accountability:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

Because it’s lead by men.

Blatant misogyny is easy to wave away as a problem, and equally easy to encourage.

Forced teaming. They linked it to LGB rights via Stonewall. People didn’t want to be labelled transphobic as it conjured memories of nasty people being homophobic in the past. Youngsters wanted to be trendy and accepting etc.

[quote MrsOvertonsWindow]James Kirkup in the Spectator gives a clear explanation of the Denton's report that demonstrates how to influence social change on the quiet, behind close doors and without democratic scrutiny or accountability:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists[/quote]
I also think that very few of us ever imagined WHAT it is that the most ferocious trans advocates were really demanding. I thought that the category 'women' in most social contexts would perhaps consists of biologically female adult human beings PLUS those trans women who strongly identified as women. I didn't realise that the trans activism would require erasing the female biological sex as the basis on which someone can be defined as a woman or a girl.

I had no idea ten years ago that the general vocabulary (women, men, etc) we have always used would suddenly become meaningless coleslaw.

And I think most people were acting on the basis of 'be kind', not expecting that the slogan 'trans women are women' is, in fact, meant to be the exact definition of what all women now are (only those things which trans women share with natal women are allowed to enter the definition of 'woman.' )

But yes, there is also the stealth strategy, used in Ireland, for instance, where the trans rights are hooked to some other rights with more political support.

Slippery slope.

Transsexual -> transgender -> trans.
Transition (hormones and surgery) -> transition (social transition, changing clothes etc) -> transition (self-ID).
Man (self-IDs as trans) -> transwoman (trans women are women) -> woman.

So we are now in a position where a man says he is "trans", refuses to change pronouns and continues to present as a man, and we must now consider him a woman.

I hate to be a pedant op, but trans men is used in your op when you are referring to trans women (biological males transitioning to female)

I can obviously see how the confusion arises though and I think it's a deliberate muddying of terms.

I don't think it's hateful to say that transmen are biological women who believe they have a male gender Id.

And that biological men who believe they have a feminine identify are trans women.

It's facts.

[quote MrsOvertonsWindow]James Kirkup in the Spectator gives a clear explanation of the Denton's report that demonstrates how to influence social change on the quiet, behind close doors and without democratic scrutiny or accountability:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists[/quote]
Important to remember this. Strategic and deliberate positioning. It is what advocates and lobbyists do, and why we should all be more questioning than we are.

I heard that an innate approach to challenge and stress usually plays out in a personality in one of four ways: people exhibit either a fight, flight, freeze or appease first response.

In terms of GC women the "fighters" are fighting an absurdity, the other 3/4 are looking on.

In terms of teen and young women who have been educated to "be kind" a quarter of those are fighting against GC women. 3/4 are looking on and learning what the world is like - the zeitgeist, if you will.

The 25% of women fighting for the rest are sheros.

@WeDontTalkAboutYouKnow

I hate to be a pedant op, but trans men is used in your op when you are referring to trans women (biological males transitioning to female)

I can obviously see how the confusion arises though and I think it's a deliberate muddying of terms.

I don't think it's hateful to say that transmen are biological women who believe they have a male gender Id.

And that biological men who believe they have a feminine identify are trans women.

It's facts.

You're quite right, I stand corrected-i meant to say trans women (i.e. biological males who think they are women-though how the hell you would know what a women feels like if you are born a man, nobody has yet explained convincingly) It's been a long day

I think the leap from the term 'transsexual man' to 'transwoman' has also been a real sleight of hand.

I can understand why the trans community prefer this term as it makes them feel more authentic, but it has lead to a lot of confusion and now complete boundary crossing.

It's funny how powerful words are.

Yes, my point being that the fault lies not with you, but with the deliberately wooly language designed to hide the truth.

If my view that males should not be allowed to compete against females in sport is so objectable, why do they not want to say it in that simple language?

It's all, Lia, a transwomen, has come up against criticism for racing cis women.

Not

Lia, A biological male claiming a woman gender identity, who takes hormones which lower testosterone to twice that of her female competitors and retains a penis, has come up against criticism when entered for races with women.

I remember being absolutely stunned to find that there was this whole parallel world I knew nothing about where people I assumed to be rational professionals were actually ideologues. I genuinely thought that we would just need to explain to school staff why affirming my daughter as a boy would be harmful to her mental health and all would be fine. I had no idea we’d end up effectively being accused of child abuse for not going along with them. I don’t think I’ll ever understand it. It is still incomprehensible to me.

It's funny how powerful words are.

We teach secondary pupils this, yet somehow it's a lesson that adults keep forgetting.

It's truly baffling

Anyone I speak to IRL thinks the whole premis of TW are W is ridiculous. I don't think I actually know anyone who believes this bollocks yet somehow huge corporations and government are going along with it

By saying things that we didn't believe in order to be kind.

Exactly @Signalbox , be kind about No Debate.
That shit is over

Hyperbole, so much hyperbole. Just pain old lying too but my god the hyperbole is off the scale.

Second thread this evening confusing "transmen" and "transwomen" but rather than worrying about getting "their" terminology right, why don't we just use the words we've been using for centuries? You know, men and women, male and female. Much clearer. We lose ground when we accept the terma laid out by those with whom we disagree*

Here's my thread from the other day, about Helen Joyce's view on language (in relation to sport, but applicable generally imo). Read her book Trans, if you want to understand how we got here. There are lots and lots of wonderful interviews with her on YouTube where she discusses it at length.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4522995-Helen-Joyce-we-should-stop-saying-trans?msgid=116416158

*I know avoiding the ban hammer is a concern!

You might enjoy this, too op

www.amazon.co.uk/End-World-Flat-Simon-Edge/dp/178563240X?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

The brilliant Jane Clare Jones explains it pretty well here I think:
janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

Musomama, interesting that you think transsexual => transwoman was a preference if a community. As far as I remember, it was work or Christine Burns, and 'Press for change', all quite deliberately driven to make the laws and sympathy intended for transsexuals to apply to the 'umbrella'.

Thanks for the links, especially the James kirkup article. What other unpopular things have been passed into law using this technique I wonder?

@DesidaCrick

Thanks for the links, especially the James kirkup article. What other unpopular things have been passed into law using this technique I wonder?

Have been racking my brains to find any historical parallels where influential people went along with manifest bullshit for the greater good. Stalinist show trials (particularly Bukharin, who plead guilty when he is known for a fact not to be) comes to mind.

Trans men makes perfect sense in the way you used it, OP. You mean men who transition. That's the ordinary use of language. But we're not in ordinary usage here. There's the problem.

OP, I've been thinking of starting this same thread for a while. I don't understand it either. It seems like a bad dream.

Do you (general you) think getting to where we are now was the intention from the beginning? Or it just got crazier with time?