Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The RCVS has renewed its Stonewall contract

38 replies

TheCurrywurstPrion · 08/04/2022 18:33

Sadly, despite the efforts of myself and a few other vets, the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has renewed its contract with Stonewall until March 2023.

This is particularly galling as I had paid my fees for the next year only a day or two earlier. I have a choice, but vets working within the profession or in related work in the UK have no choice, but to be members, which costs £364.

So far those I’ve been in contact with, who got in touch with the RCVS, have received no reply whatsoever from the Royal College. They haven’t sent so much as an acknowledgment that we wrote.

There were a few others I spoke to here a few weeks back. If anyone here contacted the RCVS about this, I would be interested to hear.

Trying to work out now what steps to take now. Feel free to contact me in a private message if you don’t want to do so on the thread.

OP posts:
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 08/04/2022 18:51

Well done for trying, Curry. Maybe ask them how much Stonewall is paid and what they are providing for your £364?

TheCurrywurstPrion · 08/04/2022 18:56

I think it’s guaranteed they won’t respond. I only learned the contract had been renewed through a third party.

Presumably only a tiny percentage of the fee goes to Stonewall, but it’s frustrating to be forced to contribute to a group who are actively campaigning to remove women’s rights.

OP posts:
AlternativelyWired · 08/04/2022 19:24

My Dd wants to be a vet and she's not impressed with this. I'm wondering what stonewall and vets have in common although I'm sure what stonewall do exactly so that might be the issue there.

Charley50 · 08/04/2022 19:24

Can you ask for a refund, and say why? 14 day cooling off period etc.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 08/04/2022 19:50

@Charley50

Can you ask for a refund, and say why? 14 day cooling off period etc.
I’m a bit reluctant as it could be difficult returning, should I leave.

“If you have been off the RCVS Register for more than 12 months, you may need to arrange for a letter of good standing from your current registration authority to be sent directly to the RCVS. If you have not been practising, you will be required to make a sworn declaration, carried out by a solicitor.”

Also, I’ve been a member for so many years, that it would be quite sad. I was thinking last night about what it means to be able to sign MRCVS after my name. I’m quite attached to it and can still remember a James Herriot story where he made a speech in embarrassing circumstances, which started with the words “What do the letters MRCVS mean to you?” or something similar.

Silly probably, as the RCVS has changed really beyond all recognition. They don’t so much protect vets, as protect the public from vets, or at least that’s how it feels. So I guess I’m clinging to something that no longer really represents me, other than that I have a veterinary degree from the UK.

But the real question is, how can vets, who understand fully about sex, be caught up in the ludicrous fiction that men are women. And why, when others are seeing the light, are they clinging so pathetically onto a lobby group that gives false representation of UK law.

OP posts:
Cuck00soup · 08/04/2022 20:16

Of all the groups who should know better...

tedgran · 08/04/2022 20:19

My DH is a retired vet, he's not happy about this.

Clymene · 08/04/2022 20:26

Bloody hell. Of all professions, veterinary science is one where I'd imagine sex of your clients is a massive part of the job. Spaying, gelding, castration, sexing animals, insemination of livestock.

It's hard to think of reasons they need advice from stonewall

Charley50 · 08/04/2022 20:43

@TheCurrywurstPrion - I understand, and know how you feel. My workplace has literally just joined Stonewall. I've complained about it, got them to rethink it, and am really hoping to persuade them it's a bad idea. How any medical and science-based bodies joined them just baffles me.

EdithStourton · 08/04/2022 20:47

But the real question is, how can vets, who understand fully about sex, be caught up in the ludicrous fiction that men are women
That's what I thought when I saw the thread title - I wondered if there was some other RCVS that I didn't know about.

Hortensiateapot · 08/04/2022 22:07

I am a member of the profession. I wanted to write to them but didn’t feel confident enough in my facts and arguments. Also I do understand their rationale for wanting to support an organisation which on the surface represents LGBT people - especially as the profession is aiming to open up in diversity along many axes (including race and class also).

My view is that the RCVS is like a massive old tortoise which is always behind on the times. I don’t imagine they will have thought beyond getting a stonewall star as a tick in a diversity box. Also, I don’t feel stonewall policy affects our patients/service users in the same way as medics and generally practices are smaller so staff changing areas/toilets are rarely shared in the same way. It is galling that they receive even a portion of our retention fee though- knowing what we know.

I wonder maybe I should send that letter after all, but please don’t give up on a profession you love. I predict the house of cards will fall at some point and some people will be left looking shamefaced and naive.

DomesticatedZombie · 08/04/2022 22:15

I am entertaining myself thinking of ways vet surgeries could win extra Stonewall points ...

Sorry, OP, that sounds like a difficult situation. Could you join forces with Hortensia and/or others and write a joint letter?

ChubbyNinja · 08/04/2022 22:30

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

WalrusSubmarine · 08/04/2022 22:33

But I presume the people actually working at head office are admin assistants, small marketing or fundraising teams, an IT person, an HR person and then just a few very senior people who are actually trained as vets that do policy.

Having worked at a small charity I’d guess your letter has just reached someone’s Admin Assistant or middle manager. I’m surprised you haven’t had any response at all however- I’d be annoyed about that.

Charley50 · 08/04/2022 22:42

Maybe they'll start forcing vets to ask about animal's gender identity.

BattyOrange · 08/04/2022 22:48

I'm not a vet but I do use veterinary services. Is there anything we can do as customers that might help force change here?

FeelingVeryDisturbed · 08/04/2022 23:06

Pissed off.
I require my MRCVS to practice, I am required to pay the RCVS money to achieve this, RCVS funds Stonewall.
With my money. That I can't not give them.
I feel there must be some sort of precedent for this - can professional bodies act in a political manner?
Raging.

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/04/2022 06:09

Also I do understand their rationale for wanting to support an organisation which on the surface represents LGBT people - especially as the profession is aiming to open up in diversity along many axes (including race and class also).

I understand the rationale, and given that recent past presidents of the RCVS have included a man who uses a wheelchair and a black woman, I suspect they actually have a much wider interest in diversity than Stonewall, which I find ironic.

Also, I don’t feel stonewall policy affects our patients/service users in the same way as medics and generally practices are smaller so staff changing areas/toilets are rarely shared in the same way.

I expect if you asked them, they would tell you the only people affected are the RCVS staff. However the social media policy has Stonewall’s fingerprints all over it and that does affect us. As well as the usual of missing out the protected characteristic of sex, they cover transgender identity instead of gender reassignment (there’s even a little reminder that transgender identity has to be taken more seriously as it’s covered by hate crime legislation). More seriously, I consider the remit is so broad that it is likely to have a chilling effect on free speech:

”veterinary surgeons should avoid making, posting or facilitating statements, images or videos that:

b. cause undue distress”

My guess is that lots of vets will be blissfully unaware of the policy, but I can imagine that if a complaint was received by the disciplinary committee, they might easily react in a kneejerk manner and tell the vet to stop posting. It’s not beyond the imagination that they would consult Stonewall either. Given what happened to Alison Bailey, I have no faith that any process would be fair and reasonable. I doubt they’d strike anyone off, but any vet told to shut up by the RCVS would be faced with a difficult choice as you can’t practice as a vet in the UK unless you’re a member.

Could you join forces with Hortensia and/or others and write a joint letter?

I did consider this, however such actions require contacts and as anyone following all this probably knows, one thing transactivists do very well is collective action. Given that I already know a few vets who are for women’s rights and recognize that Stonewall are actively campaigning to erode them, but who feel unable to reveal their names for fear of reprisals, I think any letter we sent would same met with a counter letter with more signatures.

I think what really needs to happen is that we need to raise awareness. Most vets at the moment are probably unaware that the RCVS is linked to Stonewall, and even if they know, most probably aren’t aware of how much their remit has changed and how damaging their policies are now.

Perhaps a very carefully worded letter to Kate Richards pointing out that big organisations, particularly government departments, are leaving stonewall might have an effect.

Having worked at a small charity I’d guess your letter has just reached someone’s Admin Assistant or middle manager.

I sent emails addressed to the president and the CEO and also to the general email address. It was carefully constructed and reasonable as I am aware that sometimes it would be easy to look overinvested or paranoid. I mentioned that other organisations were leaving and why.

I'm not a vet but I do use veterinary services. Is there anything we can do as customers that might help force change here?

It’s quite difficult, because there’s probably very little direct effect on clients. I guess if you’re a valuable client with close links, it’s a topic you might raise as something you’ve read about on the internet, but other than that, I don’t have anything at the moment.

I don’t have a network, so perhaps that’s something I need to think about as a first line. There’s no clear way forward at present, but I have felt quite cheered to know I’m certainly not the only person who cares about this.

I require my MRCVS to practice, I am required to pay the RCVS money to achieve this, RCVS funds Stonewall.
With my money. That I can't not give them.

This is what’s so galling. I hate the idea that I am supporting such a group, even if indirectly and even if it’s only a small part of the fees. It’s money that could be directed to something that was less damaging.

I feel there must be some sort of precedent for this - can professional bodies act in a political manner?

This might be something to look at. Given that government departments, the civil service and the police have all been signed up to Stonewall at some points, I doubt professional bodies are any different. I will try to look at whether there’s anything that might prevent them, however.

OP posts:
Hortensiateapot · 09/04/2022 07:32

Some great points Currywurst. Particularly the social media one. I have a colleague who got into some online argy bargy about brexit back in the day. Another who was targeted online by an unhappy client when their pet sadly couldn’t be saved. It’s not a big stretch to imagine someone complaining to the rcvs about a member’s social media, or the targeting of letter signatories.

NotADressPerson · 09/04/2022 08:11

Ex Vet Nurse here. Would've loved to have worked with you OP. :)

TheCurrywurstPrion · 09/04/2022 17:17

@NotADressPerson

Ex Vet Nurse here. Would've loved to have worked with you OP. :)
Would have been good. 😊 I always fancied starting my own practice. Sadly I got caught up in life and never managed it.
OP posts:
LittleWhingingWoman · 09/04/2022 17:21

It's almost as if someone wants to influence vets to say that there's no such thing as biological sex.

Soontobe60 · 09/04/2022 17:24

@Clymene

Bloody hell. Of all professions, veterinary science is one where I'd imagine sex of your clients is a massive part of the job. Spaying, gelding, castration, sexing animals, insemination of livestock.

It's hard to think of reasons they need advice from stonewall

You’ve clearly forgotten about the non binary dogs and cats!
AlternativelyWired · 09/04/2022 17:35

Cats and dogs generally identify as hungry don't they?

respectmysex · 09/04/2022 17:43

For those who are not aware, the MRCVS is the equivalent for vets of the GMC for doctors. They are the competent authority that deals with disciplinary investigations for complaints about a vets practice or their conduct.

OP makes a very good point about how Stonewall influence the outcome of disciplinary proceedings and that vets need to be very careful as they will struggle to get a fair assessment of a complaint if all the staff and advisors (who are not lawyers) are stonewalled. It is the admin staff who decide to proceed to a hearing on a complaint - if it is one about Gender Critical views for instance, the first sensible take on it will be at a hearing itself when the lawyers get there.

Swipe left for the next trending thread