‘To be trans is to enter a sacred journey of becoming whole’

[tabbycatstripy]

This isn’t a quotation from India Willoughby. It’s from a letter signed by senior religious leaders, including Rowan Williams, ex Archbishop of Canterbury, to Boris Johnson, urging him to ban trans conversion therapy.

I’m not a member of the CoE, but I don’t think I’m unreasonable in thinking they are going outside their religious remit. If I attended their church I would be seriously questioning whether these people shared my religious faith, and whether they had lost their ability to lead me in faith.

Be trans, don’t be trans. I don’t mind. But I don’t think it has anything to do with Christianity and see nothing in any Christian thought that would regard being trans as ‘sacred’ (obviously being kind etc is a Christian way to live your life - that’s different to calling being trans ‘sacred’).

All a bit odd.

Is this saying, logically, that all those of us who don't subscribe to 'gendered souls sometimes being in the wrong bodies' are 'whole' ourselves already? Cos I certainly haven't felt 'whole' for parts of my life, eg because of trauma, female puberty, anxiety etc

I didn't know I did (want to fuck with holiday home saucepans and milk) but I do now. [Eyes the holiday cottage across the village green and wonders if they have security cameras]

‘Is this saying, logically, that all those of us who don't subscribe to 'gendered souls sometimes being in the wrong bodies' are 'whole' ourselves already?’

Might be. But it’s certainly saying God makes some people not in his own image. Makes them imperfectly. I’m not sure Rowan wants to stand in front of the pearly gates armed with that attitude.

This 'sacred journey' feels like variation of S&B. It seems to me that the idea of castration is so horrifying and fundamental to most men that those who chose it inspire either disgust or semi-religious awe, depending on your general openness.

Like, they’re holy because they have desexed themselves?

I don’t know where to start with this. I suspect there are two things going on……. Wanting to right the wrongs of historical church gay conversion/homophobic attitudes AND some influential trans people (?clergy) who have his ear, the “sacred wholeness” being how they now feel living their authentic lives. A bit like the one child in Lisa Mandy’s constituency - where an emotional reaction to one person dismisses critical thinking about how this works in society as a whole.

Difficult when it’s almost impossible to really define what trans actually is (particularly accounting for the more performative/part time identities under the trans umbrella) and furthermore to define conversion therapy - is this anything other than 100% affirmation without exploring underlying factors or long term consequences?

I’d like to hear him explain how the sacred wholeness relates to detransitioners coerced into irreversible harm or a transwidow living with a partner who has undergone a complete personality change.

Let alone the shaky theology of God making mistakes, people being in the wrong body and the idea that “wholeness” can be achieved by outward/physical changes.

I am a Christian, formerly CofE but would not go back now. Expanding numbers of Bishops and officers in non-jobs obsessively chasing money from parishes while pastoral clergy in the community are wound down.

Isn't it a bad thing for the trans movement to be associated with religion?

The utterly blatant homophobia here when you consider the number of young lesbians and gay boys who then announce a trans identity. Homophobia right there in plain sight.

I suspect that Homophobia is a big factor here. The CofE won't perform Gay marriages unless on of the couple gets a GRC.

‘The CofE won't perform Gay marriages unless on of the couple gets a GRC.’

What?!

it’s certainly saying God makes some people not in his own image. Makes them imperfectly. I’m not sure Rowan wants to stand in front of the pearly gates armed with that attitude.

I'm not convinced Rowan Williams is one of those old fashioned, believes-in-God type Christians.

Strewth. Where will it all end?

Actually I don't know why I'm asking, because I know the answer already. With women at the bottom of the pile yet again.

@donquixotedelamancha I know people who know him fairly well and he does very much believe in God which is why I find this more disappointing than when wishy washy clergy buy into the whole thing.

I rather like the vicar in my village and consequently toddle along to our pretty little church occasionally. I went the week Russia invaded Ukraine and although I can't remember what the hymns and psalms were now I found them rather comforting at the time. Afterwards as the dozen of us hovered outside the Church to discuss Ukraine and the cyclamens one gentleman expressed some (what I thought) very unChristian thoughts to the effect that local private schools should also join in the sanctions and kick out their rich Russian pupils.

This week in the village magazine our vicar is discussing sin and evil "Little wonder that our forbears spoke of Satan as a real and personal embodiment of evil. It is as if the Kremlin is in the grip of evil and has no control over it".

I have no idea what he thinks about souls and being born in the wrong body but he doubt he has much time for it, though possibly he thinks Putin has been possessed by Satan.

Yes, donquixote is correct. The CofE cannot bless or conduct gay marriages. The only churches in England that can are URC and Methodist (Scotland is a bit different).
The CofE can, however, marry a legal 'man and woman' even if they are biologically both male or both female. They just need one of them to have a GRC to give them a new legal gender.
Apparently, the CofE God thinks this is ok, but gay marriage is not.

What?!

The CofE (officially) opposes gay marriage or blessings but does permit marriage between (for example) a marrige between a woman and a (lega) transman.

Like the GRA itself, I can't help but feel that their position of pretending people can litterally change sex is just a way to avoid dealing with the thorny issue of homophobia.

I really thought they did gay marriages.

I belong to a rather punchier sect of Christianity than C of E (which I've always thought of as rather wishy washy, like Panda Cola to Eastern Orthodoxy's full fat Coke) but on any doctrinal level imaginable, this is some stupid bullshit.

Vomit worthy. Much prefer JKR's latest tweet - they can take our genders but they'll never take our star signs.

@AnIckabog

Yes, donquixote is correct. The CofE cannot bless or conduct gay marriages. The only churches in England that can are URC and Methodist (Scotland is a bit different). The CofE can, however, marry a legal 'man and woman' even if they are biologically both male or both female. They just need one of them to have a GRC to give them a new legal gender. Apparently, the CofE God thinks this is ok, but gay marriage is not.

And the Quakers, I think? I believe the position is that any denomination can conduct gay marriages if it wants to (but only these few so far do) with the explicit exception of the CofE - basically cleverly cutting the Gordian Knot of the problems associated with dragging the Established church into the 20th century.

I long to burst into people's second home cottages in small, quaint villages and fuck with their saucepans and milk.

Oh God, I've found my tribe!

Well, RC demands abstinence from priests, there are also many instances of religious castration on Wiki entry on eunuchs. It's undoubtedly, as most pp pointed out, rooted in homophobia, as most religions are reflective of social mores, and homosexuality had very rarely been considered socially acceptable throughout human history.

In case - happy it is acceptable here and now! Although even now, not in many other countries, unfortunately. Not blaming religions either, just how it is. Want to break into a small cottage now too, I need help

If the C of E is now saying that God makes mistakes, what do they suggest I do about being born into a disabled body? Surely that was a mistake on his part too? Are we changing Songs of Praise into Complaints Department?

It's blatantly obvious this is people with good intentions and a lot of naive sentiment who really don't understand wtf they've supported and have not made any effort to investigate or think it through.

Would Christ love and accept any person, trans or otherwise? Absolutely.

Would Christ insist that women handed themselves over as a resource and abandoned privacy, dignity, consent, autonomy, equality for a TQ+ person to be happy?

Er..... I don't think so. Do you?

'Some people are more equal than others' is George Orwell mocking socialist corruption, it's not in the bible.

Someone very clever recently wrote about the TQ+ lobby wishing to re create the historical concept of the 'holy fool'.

I thought at the time that was extremely acute.

I believe the position is that any denomination can conduct gay marriages if it wants to (but only these few so far do) with the explicit exception of the CofE

Yes but that's because to do so would require legislation- it would be passed in an instant if the CofE wanted it.