Do people who use they/them pronouns refer to themselves as 'we'?

[DoubleYouOhEmAyEn]

Just a thought. Can't get my head around they/them pronouns. My brain won't compute that is isn't plural. Or is there a plural aspect? Two spirit etc. And has anyone come across people referring to themselves as 'we'?

I very much doubt it. Why would they? The purpose of using 'they/them' is not to use the plural, but to avoid stating sex, and 'I' does not state sex, so there's no need to avoid it.

Yes, there are people who refer to themselves in the plural if they're emphasising their two spirit or anima nature.

There are people who state both a gendered singular and plural set of pronouns and complain if other people elect to use one set and not the other.

Anyone else recall the theatre programme with the performer's stated pronouns of they/him/hers?

twitter.com/AlexThomasSmith/status/1441437817041678343?s=20

Of course its confusing. So imagine 2 people from an external organisation are due to attend a meeting next day and one of their PAs sends an email to say "Michael says sorry but they cannot attend tomorrow". Does she mean just Michael can't attend or both of them. And isn't it clearer if she says "Michael says sorry but he can't attend tomorrow". Another example "Fred said that they were not aware of the proposed changes". Does that mean Fred is not aware or Fred and his team?. I've just received a report where someone attempted to avoid using he/she etc all the way through and it was so convoluted, so example above would be written as Fred said that Fred was not aware of the proposed changes". It had obviously taken a lot of effort for the writer and I dont think there was any doubt about the gender of anyone mentioned in the report.

Slightly different point but in the same vein... when I was pregnant with my DD we chose not to find out the sex of the baby so referred to her as they/them and the number of times we were asked if we were having twins! Even after explaining why we were using they, the midwives seemed to find it so confusing which I couldn't really understand. What do people normally call their baby if they don't know? It? That just felt wrong for a person.

When the Monarch uses the Royal We, its because they are referring to themselves, and also God.

www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1251949/Queen-elizabeth-ii-news-prince-philip-relationship-royal-family-majestic-plural

My babies were "it" until their sexes were detected during ultrasound scans, but for the most part midwives used "baby" as a pronoun.
"It's a boy!" or "It's a girl!" seems to slip by those who are otherwise hugely offended by "it" as a pronoun for humans, even when sex is undetectable through a nappy and you haven't yet been notified.

readytoretire It is very confusing. In a professional setting I think more can be done within our lovely versatile language, e.g. "I have been contacted by Fred, who is not aware of the proposals." or "I have apologies from Michael for tomorrow's meeting." but that won't work in every situation, and involves some mental and verbal effort.

In my experience the speaker who is being careful with gendering is often completely unaware of which knowledge they are not passing along, perhaps because they are already concentrating so hard on the gendering thing.

I still would love to know what else others are expected to do to acknowledge someone's non-binary identity. Are we supposed to treat men, women, and non-binary individuals differently at work or in school?

This seems a step back for women's rights.

What ever valid points the gender critical movement (for want of a better term) might have, you really are your own worst enemy when you post shit like this. Of course they don’t. Unless they have DID or something. They has been used in non plural form for donkeys years.

I find it really confuses language. Abhorrent I know but I would like to use 'they is' so I know it is person x and not something else.

For my babies they were 'it' until a certain stage then I just called them 'baby' which is neutral until they were born and I observed their sex! I can't imagine using they when I knew people who were pregnant with twins.

Yes, there are people who refer to themselves in the plural if they're emphasising their two spirit or anima nature.

Ffs. I mean...really?

I believe "they is" will become common usage for the new instance of singular they, and possibly all singular theys.

I know we are reaching a turning point on the ridiculous stuff, and gender ideology will recede, but I don't think the singular they will ever go back to how it was. We really do need a sex-neutral singular personal pronoun. It's just a shame it turned out to be a word with other meanings which will inevitably turn up close to the new one. Borrowing something from another language would have been a much better and more functional choice.

@Fairislefandango

Yes, there are people who refer to themselves in the plural if they're emphasising their two spirit or anima nature.

Ffs. I mean...really?

Yes.

And, just to add complexity to this, there are (predominantly self-diagnosed) young people who are using plural pronouns and singular pronouns (might be differently gendered/sexed) to refer to their 'alters'. However, for this group, pronoun change isn't restricted to descriptions of a person's systems of alters but also day-to-day interactions.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4451429-Social-contagion-TikTok-trans-alters-multiple-personality-disorder

I sincerely hope that this is a transient social period that will be shortlived.

For me the problem isn't with they not being singular - it can be. But using they to speak of someone in the singular seems too impersonal given that until very recently it would only be used for someone you hadn't met or someone hypothetical, e.g. "I had my appointment with the the doctor" - "Oh what did they say?" To my ears using it for someone you know seems almost like an insult, a step away from calling someone 'it'

@RocketAndAFuckingMelon

I wonder whether the same discussions took place when there was a shift from using the singular "thou" to the plural "you."

"Young knave, how bewildering thou art! Dost thou speak of "we" in place of "I" - for when thou speakest to me and sayest "you," thou speakest as to a crowd!"

Thats interesting I didn't know that

@Regularsizedrudy

What ever valid points the gender critical movement (for want of a better term) might have, you really are your own worst enemy when you post shit like this. Of course they don’t. Unless they have DID or something. They has been used in non plural form for donkeys years.

Is that the plural or the singular 'you'?

Yeah, the singular they is not used in the same way as the "genderless" they and it gets put into grammatical constructions you don't encounter with the singular they.

And while I may be straying into controversial territory here, some people really over-use the standard singular they as well, and it would be much clearer and sound better if they just altered the sentence a little and avoided the whole thing. At least in written form.

@Pumpkin314

For me the problem isn't with they not being singular - it can be. But using they to speak of someone in the singular seems too impersonal given that until very recently it would only be used for someone you hadn't met or someone hypothetical, e.g. "I had my appointment with the the doctor" - "Oh what did they say?" To my ears using it for someone you know seems almost like an insult, a step away from calling someone 'it'

I feel the same, it feels as if I am being very rude using they when the person is a real person I have met and not a hypothetical person of unknown sex.

@Regularsizedrudy

What ever valid points the gender critical movement (for want of a better term) might have, you really are your own worst enemy when you post shit like this. Of course they don’t. Unless they have DID or something. They has been used in non plural form for donkeys years.

If you've seen some of the other weird stuff going on with pronouns at the moment, you might also wonder if there are people using "we" for themselves. It's gone well beyond increased use of the singular they.

@Anythingbutsnow we used to have three forms of second person pronouns:
thu (thou) / thin (thine) - singular
git (you two) / incer (your two) - dual
ge (ye / you) / eower (your) - plural

The singular and dual have died out and been replaced entirely by the plural. The singular survives in some dialects but in a very abbreviated form.

I'm very interested to see whether the singular third person pronoun dies out altogether to be replaced by the plural in the same way.

If your friend had been to the doctor but had not specified whether the doctor was a man or woman, and you wanted to ask what the doctor had said, what would you say?

Does "What did they think was the problem?" sound wrong to you? That's a singular 'they'. Or would you say 'the doctor'? Cos that'd be fine for first use, but it could get a bit tedious:

"What did the doctor think was the problem?"
"Apparently it's a hernia, I'll need some treatment. Glad I know what's wrong"
"Ah yeah I bet. So will you go back to the doctor in a few weeks to see if it's working?"
"Yeah and then maybe some other medication"
"Oh it's good that the doctor has other options"

etc etc. It might be very obvious here I have a tenuous grasp on physiology have no idea what they do for a hernia hahaha - but singular they is used all the time, it's exactly the same.

There is a trend going around for teens to self diagnose as having multiple personality disorder.

They use "we" when taking about themselves and ask others to refer to them as they/them because they actually believe they have more than one personality in their body....

It's another socially contagious phenomenon, now that having one of a million various gender identities has gotten boring.

It really isn't that difficult. The lengths that people will go to to make an issue out of something that doesn't matter...

I sincerely hope that this is a transient social period that will be shortlived.

A hearty amen to that.

I think it's genuine confusion not passive aggression. The point that we use it when a person's sex is unknown always baffles me as what has that got to do with using it when their sex is known?

There seems to be some confusion in how we singularise it too. So we'd say 'she is coming round later' if we knew the person or 'they are coming round later' if we didn't and didn't know if they were male or female. But if we know the person, then should it not be 'they is coming round later?'.

I don't think it's helpful to write this off as PA and not consider that it may be causing genuine confusion.

@housemaus

If your friend had been to the doctor but had not specified whether the doctor was a man or woman, and you wanted to ask what the doctor had said, what would you say?

Does "What did they think was the problem?" sound wrong to you? That's a singular 'they'. Or would you say 'the doctor'? Cos that'd be fine for first use, but it could get a bit tedious:

"What did the doctor think was the problem?"
"Apparently it's a hernia, I'll need some treatment. Glad I know what's wrong"
"Ah yeah I bet. So will you go back to the doctor in a few weeks to see if it's working?"
"Yeah and then maybe some other medication"
"Oh it's good that the doctor has other options"

etc etc. It might be very obvious here I have a tenuous grasp on physiology have no idea what they do for a hernia hahaha - but singular they is used all the time, it's exactly the same.

That's not how it goes though is it? People much more quickly revert to guessing the sex of the doc rather than using 'they' as it sounds wrong to our ears. I'm actually full on supportive of a gender neutral pronoun but 'they' is not the easy win people want to make it out to be.