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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Observer article - From pool to track: disputes over trans athletes mustn’t make everyone a loser

21 replies

Popuptent · 03/04/2022 08:47

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/03/disputes-over-trans-athletes-must-not-make-everyone-a-looser

OP posts:
Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 03/04/2022 08:52

This is a really good article. Makes it very clear that it’s not all about testosterone and is also very clear on why sex does matter in sports.

tabbycatstripy · 03/04/2022 08:56

I agree with most of this, but not that ‘misgendering’ is bigotry. ‘Misgendering’ ‘to humiliate’ - sure, this would be bigotry. But ‘misgendering’ because you, when you use pronouns, use them to refer to sex because you oppose gendered constructs, isn’t bigotry. It’s not particularly gentle behaviour, but it’s not bigotry.

Popuptent · 03/04/2022 08:56

I'm not sure what he means when he says 'women’s sport may end up seeming like a kind of ghetto' if it becomes a sex based category.

OP posts:
tigger2022 · 03/04/2022 09:02

This is a great article overall, though confused by the "ghetto" comment too!

FromOurHatsToOurFeet · 03/04/2022 09:02

@Popuptent

I'm not sure what he means when he says 'women’s sport may end up seeming like a kind of ghetto' if it becomes a sex based category.
He's a man. He sees women's sports as secondary to men's sports and thinks if all the "good" (ie men and trans women) players are in one open category then the "lesser" (natal women) are in another then no onewill watch it. Forgetting that the no ones watching it will be women. He might think he's progressive and all about equality but he's just like some bloke complaining about why did they make Captain Marvel and who wants to see a film with a female lead - completely ignoring the fact women predominantly have only been able to watch films or read books with male protagonists.
tabbycatstripy · 03/04/2022 09:03

I’m not either. I wonder if he means it might seem like an area we have built ‘walls’ around? Well, yes, we are supposed to have these walls in sport. They’re called categories. I’m fine with it.

Very poor choice of language.

tigger2022 · 03/04/2022 09:09

Yeah I think the problem is we've got to a place where not including literally everyone in literally everything is somehow thought of as innately wrong

InvisibleDragon · 03/04/2022 09:21

This is a good, measured article. Interestingly, it's also from a commentator who isn't the sports reporter, and who is framing this as a balance of rights issue.

The ending is very strong:
To discriminate against trans people in the workplace, to refuse to serve them in a shop, to object to trans adoptions, to deliberately misgender as a means of humiliating someone – that is bigotry. To argue for sex-based categories in sport – that is not. To deem both “transphobic” is to diminish the meaning of the word.

We can only work our way through these conundrums with open discussion rather than dismissing disagreement as “hatred”. Such rhetoric only stokes fear and resentment and makes it more difficult to come to an equitable solution.

Trans people face considerable prejudice and discrimination. We cannot challenge that, though, by undermining women’s rights. The problem does not lie with Lia Thomas or Emily Bridges. It lies with sports authorities who have ducked the issue and those who would shut down the debate rather than work through the difficulties. Sooner or later, we’re going to have to debate this as grownups.

Fenlandia · 03/04/2022 09:27

90,000 people watched a women's football match last week. Some ghetto.

FemaleAndLearning · 03/04/2022 10:43

Once we get rid of TWAW this discussion will be much easier.
Bit at end was agreeable.

Observer article - From pool to track: disputes over trans athletes mustn’t make everyone a loser
Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/04/2022 10:59

Bring on the grown up debate, Kenan, by all means. It's not feminist women who are avoiding it.

sashagabadon · 03/04/2022 11:05

I didn’t like the ghetto comment. I think he means the “open” category would be men, trans women and very good / elite women would choose to compete in this category too but he completely misunderstands. Women don’t want to compete in an open category with men. We want to compete in our own category with other females. We are our own thing not wannabe men. I think he is just looking at it with sexist male eyes e.g the open category will be the premier league and the women category the also rans. But that is not how women would look at it at all as we do not see our sport as lesser than the mens.

Frocksonthebox · 03/04/2022 11:07

It would be great with all this new interest in female sports if we all posted in the Mumnsnet "sports" category regularly, it's a bit of a wasteland over there and the two top threads are about male football and Formula 1.

Clymene · 03/04/2022 11:13

That's not a bad article. It would have been better if he had mentioned that actually Bridges was about to be dropped from the men's team. There was no way he was going to get to the Olympics. And then he transitioned

Lemonyfuckit · 03/04/2022 11:20

@Popuptent

I'm not sure what he means when he says 'women’s sport may end up seeming like a kind of ghetto' if it becomes a sex based category.
This was the main part of the article I queried too. Found that a bit offensive to be honest, women's sport would presumably remain exactly as it is, for biologically female athletes, of which there are plenty, and I don't think they feel they are somehow 'other'.
Melroses · 03/04/2022 11:21

Australia have just won the Women's Cricket World Cup. 👍

Melroses · 03/04/2022 11:23

@Clymene

That's not a bad article. It would have been better if he had mentioned that actually Bridges was about to be dropped from the men's team. There was no way he was going to get to the Olympics. And then he transitioned
Transitioning seems to come at a time of stress Hmm
ThrowawayBerna · 03/04/2022 11:59

@Frocksonthebox

It would be great with all this new interest in female sports if we all posted in the Mumnsnet "sports" category regularly, it's a bit of a wasteland over there and the two top threads are about male football and Formula 1.
But why, Frocks? It's not a new interest in sport. It's not about sport itself. It's a revived interest in the right of women and girls to compete in sport fairly.

While it would be nice to get back to Dick Kerr's Ladies etc. proportion of support for women's sport, that's a global issue, not a FWR purity test.

Those who wouldn't cross the road for women's sport are now upset by trans women in sport

Artichokeleaves · 03/04/2022 12:01

No. Being forced to the discourtesy of ceasing to pretend things are other than they really are for the benefit of someone else is not bigotry or prejudice or anything else.

This is the equivalent of requiring women to not grimace, cry out or say ffs get off when a male person is jumping up and down on their foot because naming the behaviour will make the male person offended and distressed.

If you do not want to hear words and facts you do not like, you need to take responsibility for your behaviour in not forcing others to point them out to you.

Libertaire · 03/04/2022 12:04

Overall, that’s a good well-argued article. One of a number of recent Guardian / Observer pieces which indicate that they are starting to realise that they have been on the wrong side of these issues.

As a sports fan, however Mailk’s comments about “women’s sport may end up seeming like a kind of ghetto” are as ignorant as they are nonsensical. It’s obvious he didn’t watch Alyssa Healy smashing 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 bowlers in the cricket World Cup final this morning (😢), or watch Savannah Marshall’s brutal KO of her opponent last night. ‘Ghetto’ my arse.

ChopinBoard · 03/04/2022 12:26

"The problem does not lie with Lia Thomas or Emily Bridges."

It does and it doesn't. If it weren't them, it would be someone else. But I don't think it's right to let them off the hook. Their participation in women's sports is ammoral even if it's not currently against the rules.

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