Janice Turner in Times - women will never accept sports being rigged

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www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a1be0454-b1f2-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=475cf38546a5b25ef1ceb60846ad4b93

@Queenoftheashes

What so because men can’t do it we can’t have it as a sport? Bullshit.

Men can do it; there is a nascent interest in rhythmic for men. But it isn't at Olympic level yet. Sex inequality between sports is something the IOC looks on unfavourably - obviously when women are disadvantaged by this, we'd all want them to be against it. Part of the reason why they've allowed the seeming inequality of rhythmic for so long is probably because of the baked in imbalance within artistic, whereby MAG always has more medals than WAG (6 individual events vs 4).

I'm personally in favour of rhythmic continuing as a single sex sport (at least, if they can sort out the Russia debacle, which is a big "if"). Just clarifying some of the issues with the IOC.

Just wanted to add my voice to the appreciation of Janice Turner's article.

^In the first game of its kind, a team of 11 transgender women is taking part in a football match today to mark this year’s Transgender Day of Visibility (TDOV).

Amongst those making history will be Paula Griffin, a 57-year-old player for TRUK United FC, a team set up to support people in the transgender community.

The encounter will see Paula and her teammates take to the pitch to play a friendly against the South East London club Dulwich Hamlet Women’s team.

And stepping in to help manage TRUK United FC is none other than former England striker Peter Crouch, who joined Dulwich Hamlet FC’s board of directors in June 2021.

^

metro.co.uk/2022/03/31/how-peter-crouch-is-helping-make-history-on-trans-day-of-visibility-16380100/

Brilliant article, Janice.

@Truthlikeness I often think about this same thing - what if sport had been designed for women's bodies instead of adapted from and kitted out based on men's sports for women. What kind of different rules, equipment, pitch sizes, sportswear would there be now?

@BunnyBerries

Brilliant article, Janice.

@Truthlikeness I often think about this same thing - what if sport had been designed for women's bodies instead of adapted from and kitted out based on men's sports for women. What kind of different rules, equipment, pitch sizes, sportswear would there be now?

Until very recently - the last 5 years or so - there were no football boots made for women (our feet are shaped quite differently from men's - who knew...?). Most of us have had to (and still do) play in men's shoes. I've never actually seen a pair of women's boots for sale in a shop - as far as I'm aware they're just available online.

I also play mixed-sex softball and the women hit a smaller ball than the men to help compensate for our lower upper body strength. I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference in practice - the men still hit theirs far further, but they are trying to introduce some fairness to the game.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus - that's an interesting point - also seen in gymnastics where powerful tumbles have replaced grace and artistry. And the iceskating example is very pertinent as the only women who can do the high scoring quads are pre-pubescent girls with the physique of a man - skinny, no hips. When puberty hits (usually late as they are often also anorexic) their careers are over.

[quote zanahoria]^In the first game of its kind, a team of 11 transgender women is taking part in a football match today to mark this year’s Transgender Day of Visibility (TDOV).

Amongst those making history will be Paula Griffin, a 57-year-old player for TRUK United FC, a team set up to support people in the transgender community.

The encounter will see Paula and her teammates take to the pitch to play a friendly against the South East London club Dulwich Hamlet Women’s team.

And stepping in to help manage TRUK United FC is none other than former England striker Peter Crouch, who joined Dulwich Hamlet FC’s board of directors in June 2021.

^

metro.co.uk/2022/03/31/how-peter-crouch-is-helping-make-history-on-trans-day-of-visibility-16380100/[/quote]
So it can be done. This is a good thing. Trans people can have their own teams. I think this should be lauded as progress and replicated.

[quote Truthlikeness]@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus - that's an interesting point - also seen in gymnastics where powerful tumbles have replaced grace and artistry. And the iceskating example is very pertinent as the only women who can do the high scoring quads are pre-pubescent girls with the physique of a man - skinny, no hips. When puberty hits (usually late as they are often also anorexic) their careers are over.[/quote]
This absolutely is not true. There is still a huge amount of grace and artistry in gymnastics. Powerful tumbling reflects slightly older athletes rather than little girls, and that's actually a good thing.

Any chance of a share token for that article?

I'd be interested in knowing more about the Tokyo Rhythmic problem - I've nor heard anything. Maybe just a link so as not to derail this thread.

Sports being designed for male bodies has blown my mind. It just never occurred to me but of course it so obvious. I feel very ignorant.

@Binglebong The background is that rhythmic is under one person's control in Russia and she is literally the wife of an oligarch, close to Putin. She is very abusive to the athletes. In Tokyo, the top Russian did not win all around gold in rhythmic. The Russian response was incredibly negative and melodramatic, including having a gold medal made for this athlete (who took silver), and vast anti Semitic social media trolling of the actual winner, who is Israeli.

www.givemesport.com/1735380-tokyo-olympics-russia-brand-rhythmic-gymnastics-judging-a-disgrace/

www.nbcolympics.com/news/tokyo-olympics-rhythmic-gymnastics-review-dramatic-upsets-end-russian-dominance

Goodness! Thank you, I had no idea.

I'm an ultra runner and there are some awesome women smashing records out there. It seems that after a certain distance women can bear men.

In a previous life I was in the equestrian world.

I wonder whether we'll ever see a trans ultra runner or show jumper. I would highly doubt it as there wouldn't be any advantage as an adult.

After a certain distance woman can beat men.

We know we can bear them. Just about.

I had never considered that sport was designed for men and that’s one of the many reasons I love this section as I am always learning and challenging my thought process!

@GastroNuisance

I'm an ultra runner and there are some awesome women smashing records out there. It seems that after a certain distance women can bear men.

In a previous life I was in the equestrian world.

I wonder whether we'll ever see a trans ultra runner or show jumper. I would highly doubt it as there wouldn't be any advantage as an adult.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jeska

Just the person you want to buddy up with on a trail ultramarathon in the middle of nowhere.

MEN in sports shouldn’t accept women’s sports being rigged!

Fucking hell

@Innocenta - thanks for the correction. Would you say then it's the case at elite level gymnastics, which is necessarily the older athletes? There are plenty of comparison videos between international athletes in the 70s vs today showing the difference in approach.

Equestrian sports also have a very high proportion of gay male athletes at high level. Dressage particularly, which had the the first openly gay athlete to compete in the modern Olympics.

The current FEI dressage rankings have women occupying 8 of the top 10 slots with two gay men (who actually happen to be a couple) in positions 7 and 10.

I'm more than a testosterone level / women are more than a testosterone level are quite pithy phrases!

Women will never accept sports being rigged

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a1be0454-b1f2-11ec-8b8c-0207c0fd6104?shareToken=c5551cb22f3c608c89b621787f2b53be

@Truthlikeness I don't want to bore everyone (...more than I already have!) or derail the thread too much, but essentially, the history of artistic gymnastics has seen more than one seismic shift in the demographic of the athletes competing at elite level. This is all bound up with the politics of sport (not relating to sex and gender in this instance), the marketability of certain groups of athletes at certain times, and even things like the nature of the equipment and how that has changed over the years.

During some periods, the most prominent athletes have all been very young (including ages which would not even be allowed to compete in the senior elite category now). Something connected with this is that very young athletes are easier to control, and so in most cases, it has emerged in hindsight that the environments creating these elites were profoundly abusive. What we see as 'graceful' is often the result of literally starving a child over many years. That's not to say we can't appreciate their gymnastics, but it is a sport with huge ethical issues in its past (going far beyond the famous sexual abuse scandal), and so the idea that a lot of people who don't follow it have, i.e. that the grace has vanished, reflects a lack of familiarity with how the changes have occurred and what those changes are.

For example, a major reason why there are bigger tumbles now is that many more gymnasts have gone through puberty. So they do have more muscle and are able to do harder skills. But surely it isn't desirable to keep them in a state of forced delayed puberty so they can compete at 14 with the body of a little girl, just because that's what used to happen...? Hypothetical, obviously, I'm not saying I think you would want that! But I hope you see what I mean. Another reason is simply that the equipment has developed immensely over the decades: the vault is totally different now, the floors are bouncier.

I won't bore on anymore, but check out themedalcount.com for interesting gymnastics history. (Not my blog, no affiliation at all.)

God, sorry that was so long, I didn't realise. I'm going to leave the thread now - apologies again.

hadn't read this yesterday as the share token had expired

what a magnificent article

@Innocenta - thanks.Very interesting! I appreciate the performance of a powerful adult female body, so I certainly don't think these changes are negative. I guess sports that include some degrees of interpretation rather than a quantifiable result, will always tread a more complicated path to 'fairness', not that any sport is immune to rules changes that benefit one group over another.

[quote Innocenta]@Truthlikeness I don't want to bore everyone (...more than I already have!) or derail the thread too much, but essentially, the history of artistic gymnastics has seen more than one seismic shift in the demographic of the athletes competing at elite level. This is all bound up with the politics of sport (not relating to sex and gender in this instance), the marketability of certain groups of athletes at certain times, and even things like the nature of the equipment and how that has changed over the years.

During some periods, the most prominent athletes have all been very young (including ages which would not even be allowed to compete in the senior elite category now). Something connected with this is that very young athletes are easier to control, and so in most cases, it has emerged in hindsight that the environments creating these elites were profoundly abusive. What we see as 'graceful' is often the result of literally starving a child over many years. That's not to say we can't appreciate their gymnastics, but it is a sport with huge ethical issues in its past (going far beyond the famous sexual abuse scandal), and so the idea that a lot of people who don't follow it have, i.e. that the grace has vanished, reflects a lack of familiarity with how the changes have occurred and what those changes are.

For example, a major reason why there are bigger tumbles now is that many more gymnasts have gone through puberty. So they do have more muscle and are able to do harder skills. But surely it isn't desirable to keep them in a state of forced delayed puberty so they can compete at 14 with the body of a little girl, just because that's what used to happen...? Hypothetical, obviously, I'm not saying I think you would want that! But I hope you see what I mean. Another reason is simply that the equipment has developed immensely over the decades: the vault is totally different now, the floors are bouncier.

I won't bore on anymore, but check out themedalcount.com for interesting gymnastics history. (Not my blog, no affiliation at all.) [/quote]
Very interesting. thanks.