Rachel Reeves Today R4 just before 8

[Monitaurus]

Biological facts are important for wome as are single sex spaces. However if you have suffered ( unspecified) difficulties we must be inclusive and the law is clear . Really?

If we include a TW who has self excluded from the male space into a female single sex space, and by doing so we exclude a female person from that space -

is one form of exclusion more acceptable than the other? Why?

@Swayingpalmtrees

For what it is worth a solution could be:

Loos, changing rooms, showers, refuges, hospital wards etc all are single sex with unisex always available to transpeople as a matter of law. Biological men can not use women's facilities and it will be protected by law

In prisons all defendants will be placed depending on their biological function. Transpeople and others at risk can be put on the same wings that are often used now. Segregation wings. Or elements of each prison can offer unisex wings with extra care taken to ensure they are monitored. If you would like to put on this wing you must have a proven medical history of more than x years to support your claim.
Women's prison will only house biological women for safety reasons, this will be enshrined in law.

Sports could introduce a trans sphere, where transpeople can compete against each other with a rainbow flag and positive messaging - a little like the olympics when we added less able bodied, in this case you can enter as you please, this would be especially helpful for gender fluid people. Women's sport would be protected by law to stop men from competing unfairly.

As a country we only treat adults - children suspecting they could be trans will be offered counselling support only. Children should be protected by law from being 'treated' as they are too young to make a major decision about their gender before adulthood at the earliest.

How difficult would it be to put this in place? Any political party could take this on with some degree of courage and clarity and make it fair for everyone. One imagines it is coming, as the issue is now featuring on most interviews with political parties. We need to determine how we are going to manage this, as it is not going away as women are not prepared to sacrifice everything inc their own and their children's safety.

Sounds to me like the the recognition of "Fafafine" that Helen Joyce describes. A recognition of third "gender". It would make some sense. I still prefer none of us to have gender and just to come as we are, with males using males spaces and females female ones, and everyone respecting everyone. But I know that is idealism in this cultural context.

I also know that the above will not be good enough for the activist contingent

We do need a third gender.
We kind of already have that, so making it more official with actual facilities, laws etc would be better than the erosion of women's rights and safety.

It won't be enough for the activists, the hardened ones, but they will become marginalised because everyone will see as a society we have worked hard to accommodate them. You can't have everything in life, and their ever expanding dream world would be a disaster for everyone else.

"I am clear that a woman has certain biological characteristics, but there are also people who were born into a different sex that identifies women and I wouldn't want to exclude them..." She went on to assert the importance of single sex spaces.

How? That's all I'm asking. How can a women's space be single-sex when you don't exclude those who were born into a different sex?

Dead simple question. Someone in the Labour Party please answer it.

If MPs do not expect the question in whatever wording it occurs than they are really ignorant about the contents of their inbox.
Surely their media people are preparing them for this. Even if they use their own vocabulary.

Labour seem to be having to develop their position day by day, interview by interview.

I think this is true. The vast bulk of Labour MPs don't think TWA literally W so they can't defend when interviewers drill down past the empty platitudes. It fells like, amongst the guff, Labour are moving a bit.

I wonder how long before the Genderists start to attack?

@Rightsraptor

Rachel Reeves is wrong; the law is very far from clear on this and that's why we're up to our necks in this mess.

Well it is clear but it has been wilfully misinterpreted to further the Trans lobby.

The simplest solution is to keep two categories of everything that's currently divided by sex: sports, toilets, changing rooms etc.

One for women. The other open to anyone.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

"I am clear that a woman has certain biological characteristics, but there are also people who were born into a different sex that identifies women and I wouldn't want to exclude them..." She went on to assert the importance of single sex spaces.

How? That's all I'm asking. How can a women's space be single-sex when you don't exclude those who were born into a different sex?

Dead simple question. Someone in the Labour Party please answer it.

Good post

It’s still muddled

Sounds like the right words but it needs clarity

thinkingaboutLangCleg

Men don’t want to change or discuss sexual abuse in front of women either.

@Artichokeleaves

Oh and I forgot this obvious one:

• how do those of the female sex distinguish between a female person trapped inside a male body, and a male person inside a male body who is making use of the narrative of being in the wrong body to access their spaces without good intent?

• What is the difference between these two male bodied people in terms of the experience of the female people using that single sex space ? Is female experience to be predicated on what the male person tells her it is?

Thanks for this very clear presentation of the problem, Artichoke.

Is female experience to be predicated on what the male person tells her it is?
I'm afraid so. We have been ordered to believe what men say: "I am who I say I am", as on those placards Amnesty International provided to protesters picketing a FiLiA conference on violence against women and girls last year. The women's experience is irrelevant.