The main flaw in the 'trans rights' argument

[OrdinaryWoman]

The main argument that single sex spaces 'violate' trans rights is entirety moot, as being trans is gender based, which is socially constructed and nothing to do with sex based rights.
It is the lack of provision tailored to supporting trans people which is potentially in violation of gender based rights.
It makes me wonder why this aspect appears to be wilfully ignored and why there are no campaigns for holistic trans services.
Instead, there exists an excessive and baffling fixation with aggressively targeting sex based rights in the name of 'trans rights'.

One might almost think that society hated women or something...

Hint: It is not "or something".

Sex-based-rights activists have suggested gender neutral spaces in addition to same sex spaces to cater for transpeople, since the beginning.

These pretty sensible and benign suggestions have been met with frothing cries of "transphobe" and violent threats .

It is literally as though it's not about the spaces at all. It's seems to be about pure domination, abusing and subjecting women.

Because they believe ‘trans rights’ means the denial of the relevance of biological sex in categorising humans.

"The lunatics have taken over the asylum, take away my right to choose
The lunatics have taken over the asylum, take away my point of view
The lunatics have taken over the asylum
The lunatics have taken over the asylum, take away my dignity
Take these things away from me
The lunatics have taken over the asylum
The lunatics have taken over the asylum, take away my family
Take away the right to speak
The lunatics have taken over the asylum take away my point of view
Take away my right to choose"

Its about being represented and acknowledged as human beings in society. If "gender based" rights are socially constructed then in order to be accepted into society trans ppl need to work within those confines. To be recognized as trans in a society that has "constructed gender" they need to work within the structure provided. All they want is to live their lives same as you and I.

Who seriously thinks that trans people aren't human beings? What are they if not human? The nub is if transwomen are women. No-one seems to be as concerned about transmen, weird that. Some tw and their supporters make it about sex not gender. They don't want a third space, it doesn't validate their womanhood.

@WhycantIgetanametostick

Its about being represented and acknowledged as human beings in society. If "gender based" rights are socially constructed then in order to be accepted into society trans ppl need to work within those confines. To be recognized as trans in a society that has "constructed gender" they need to work within the structure provided. All they want is to live their lives same as you and I.

Boy, a lot to unpack here. To try to answer some of these points:

If "gender based" rights are socially constructed then in order to be accepted into society trans ppl need to work within those confines. Two concepts gender and sex and muddled up here.
We don't have 'gender based rights'. We have sex based rights. (For example, women have the right to single-sex spaces.)
Gender roles are socially constructed. They are the same as the old sex-role stereotypes that feel out of fashion in the 1970s and 1980s, but have been revived, with a vengeance, by gender-identity zealots.

To be recognized as trans in a society that has "constructed gender" they need to work within the structure provided.
As far as I can make out, you are saying that people have to perform the gender stereotypes associated with their sex - is that right? I'm a woman, so I have to perform femininity? You are very much mistaken. As feminists have been pointing out for many decades, humans don't have to perform any gender stereotypes. I rarely wear skirts or heels, and never wear make-up. My husband isn't into sport but loves poetry. See? No need to perform stereotypes.

I can see that trans people need to believe in gender stereotypes, otherwise a man couldn't claim that liking to wear women's underclothes makes him a woman. But most of us don't believe that. So it's not society that's pushing him.

All they want is to live their lives same as you and I.
No. I do not want to undermine anyone else's rights. If a place is reserved for vegans or Muslims or children or disabled people, I do not want to force my way into it and pretend I am one of them.

sex-role stereotypes that fell out of fashion
or rather, they were pushed, by women's liberationists.

OrdinaryWoman

'there exists an excessive and baffling fixation with aggressively targeting sex based rights in the name of 'trans rights'.'

Well if you think that 'trans rights' means the right to get on with your life in peace, you'd be baffled.

If you think it actually means forcing unconsenting women to validate your fantasies, it makes perfect sense.

They do NOT want to live the same lives as you and I.

They want everyone to agree with everything they say and for people to let them do whatever they want whenever they want without any regard for other people's feelings, rights, or safety. They want women to shut up and put up or be punished if they don't.

The main flaw in the trans rights movement is that humans cannot change sex.

@WhycantIgetanametostick

Its about being represented and acknowledged as human beings in society. If "gender based" rights are socially constructed then in order to be accepted into society trans ppl need to work within those confines. To be recognized as trans in a society that has "constructed gender" they need to work within the structure provided. All they want is to live their lives same as you and I.

Gender is socially constructed. Nobody is born with gender. Gender are constructed rules about feminine and masculine behaviour and are a spectrum. 91% of trans adults decline surgery or hormone medication and are in effect following the constructed rules as to what it means to be a man or a woman. This is their choice and their right of course. Women and men also have the right to single sex spaces. Their is no justifiable reason that gender based rights should conflict with sex based rights as gender is expression and sex is biological.

@DrDinosaur

OrdinaryWoman

'there exists an excessive and baffling fixation with aggressively targeting sex based rights in the name of 'trans rights'.'

Well if you think that 'trans rights' means the right to get on with your life in peace, you'd be baffled.

If you think it actually means forcing unconsenting women to validate your fantasies, it makes perfect sense.

The second one seems more applicable.

@IcakethereforeIam

Who seriously thinks that trans people aren't human beings? What are they if not human? The nub is if transwomen are women. No-one seems to be as concerned about transmen, weird that. Some tw and their supporters make it about sex not gender. They don't want a third space, it doesn't validate their womanhood.

Thank you for explaining, I have found that the declining of a third space to be very perplexing. Another glaring issue I find that doesn't seem to be acknowledged, is the fact that 91% of trans adults decline surgery and sometimes even hormone treatment. One would assume that if you were really committed to the bit and wanted validation, you would actually go further than merely changing your wardrobe.

@Circumferences

Sex-based-rights activists have suggested gender neutral spaces in addition to same sex spaces to cater for transpeople, since the beginning.

These pretty sensible and benign suggestions have been met with frothing cries of "transphobe" and violent threats .

It is literally as though it's not about the spaces at all. It's seems to be about pure domination, abusing and subjecting women.

As has been the popular trend for centuries. Society seems to have gone completely backwards.

I certainly think that if women's safety and wellbeing were fully funded and provided for, we wouldn't have this argument in the first places. Women, cis and trans, are fighting over the scraps that the patriarchy leaves for their safeguarding in a society full of male violence.

If women had enough resources then we might, for example, be able to provide crisis resources for all women, and ones that were for cis women who, for whatever reason - no questions, no judgement - not feeling able to share spaces with trans women. But of course there's nowhere near enough resources to help the women who need it before even trying to do that.

It's sad because the reason trans women can't have the spaces and support they need is not that cis women are unwelcoming and unkind and being horrible. It's because of the patriarchy. And we'd all do well not to forget that.

@Echobelly

I certainly think that if women's safety and wellbeing were fully funded and provided for, we wouldn't have this argument in the first places. Women, cis and trans, are fighting over the scraps that the patriarchy leaves for their safeguarding in a society full of male violence.

If women had enough resources then we might, for example, be able to provide crisis resources for all women, and ones that were for cis women who, for whatever reason - no questions, no judgement - not feeling able to share spaces with trans women. But of course there's nowhere near enough resources to help the women who need it before even trying to do that.

It's sad because the reason trans women can't have the spaces and support they need is not that cis women are unwelcoming and unkind and being horrible. It's because of the patriarchy. And we'd all do well not to forget that.

Apologies, I'm not sure I understand what 'cis' means. I agree that there is an element of patriarchal ideology which factors in the oppression of women, where it is harmful is when it is combined with misogyny. Misogyny is the hatred of women simply for their sex. Femicide statistics demonstrate that over 137 women are killed globally every day by men. Women and girls in many cultures are forced to have their genitals mutilated for 'purity' endure forced marriages, forced pregnancy, rape, are victims of 'honour killings' the list goes on. Trans women do not have the same experiences as women. Furthermore, 91% of trans adults decline surgery and hormone therapy and are in effect very much staying true to the biological sex. To define a trans woman as a woman really doesn't make a lot of sense.

What I struggle with is putting the word 'gender' on an island and separating it from sex.

Is it not simply the polite way to express your sex. I e. What is your gender rather than what is your sex? Don't some languages have the same word for sex and gender?

For example, my Maternity Ward tells me I will be able to see my baby's gender on my next scan. It doesn't say sex.

Don't people actually mean 'gender stereotypes' now when they say the word 'gender'? And missing that a gender stereotype is something that's been ascribed to these words and that is continually developing?

Which is why you can freely 'identify' as whichever sex, but sorry you can't actually be it, because gender isn't an idea.

It's also why transsexual man or transsexual woman are far more accurate terms and certainly helped stem the rampant confusion we have now, sorry.

The main problem with 'trans rights' arguments is they are completely anti-scientific. They use the opposite of the scientific method.

Instead of looking at evidence and drawing conclusions, they have started with the conclusion that they want (men can become women, women can become men), then worked backwards trying to disprove anything that shows this not to be true (pretty much everything).

One of the problems with this is that you have to adopt more and more extreme arguments in order to account for all the inconvenient facts. For example: religious fundamentalists who believe that the world is about 6000 years old have to invent ludicrous tales to explain dinosaur skeletons, or tree ring data that shows the trees were alive 14,000 years ago, or pottery made more than 20,000 years ago.

It's the same with trans ideologists. Their beliefs have no basis at all in truth, so they have to invent 'female penises', and 'same gender attraction'. They claim that if a man has sex with a 'transman' (eg a woman) this man must be gay, even though it was a mundane heterosexual act. They have to claim that sex is 'assigned at birth' even though nobody ever remember assigning their baby as anything, they just had a little look (or more likely knew months in advance of the birth). They have to deny all scientific evidence when it comes to sport as admitting that men are not women would destroy the whole concept, so they demand that everybody denies the evidence of their own eyes and experience, not to mention literally thousands of years of data. They have no arguments at all about why it is impossible to be 'trans race', but they know it is a horrifically racist idea, so they have to quickly scream 'racist' at anyone who questions trans ideology in order to cover their own racist beliefs. They have to shout 'no debate' because deep down they know they will lose that debate.

Basically, the 'main flaw' in the 'trans rights' argument is that the whole thing is a pile of shite.

I do not believe that you can change sex - you are born and remain the sex are born with. I personally believe that gender and sex are the same - and that people cannot change this. This view is now seen as unacceptable but I suspect that many think like me but increasingly people feel they cannot express such an opinion openly

I am finding it somewhat contrary that on one hand the high-profile trans person on my FB feed never misses an opportunity to remind the world that they are as much a woman as anyone who was actually born female... then in the next breath is wittering on about Trans day of Visibility and how trans people are more special and worthy than any other type of people

Just proves to me that they want to have their cake and eat it... they want the world to acknowledge their Trans Specialness while they continue to still trample all over the spaces of Adult Human Females

I'd go further, some tw (please goddess not many) probably don't want permission or acceptance from women. That wouldn't make it 'fun' for them. They post, tweet and tiktok about it. I think if all women suddenly decided that, yes, twaw, come on in girls! Some of them would be gutted.

To be recognized as trans in a society that has "constructed gender" they need to work within the structure provided.

No. Many transsexual people don’t want to be recognised as trans anything. They want to live and be recognised as the men and women the feel they are and have transitioned to.

That means being treated as their acquired sex in most, but not absolutely all situations.

I think for transsexual people this distinction between ‘gender’ and sex is very artificial and meaningless in practical terms/ everyday life.

I'd go further, some tw (please goddess not many) probably don't want permission or acceptance from women. That wouldn't make it 'fun' for them. They post, tweet and tiktok about it. I think if all women suddenly decided that, yes, twaw, come on in girls! Some of them would be gutted.

I think you are correct. They wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they didn't have a group of resisting women to channel their feelings into.

They are different though. Sex occurs at conception, it isn't assigned at birth but is evident at birth if not before. I knew the sex of both my DCs in their 20 week scans. Where was I supposed to look for gender?

When I ask them now and they laugh and say they don't join in with that or the pronoun stuff, I guess like most people life goes on as before. They also don't follow stereotypes and it's a good thing young people aren't pigeonholed.

Perhaps there should be sex based toilets for men and women and gender fluid for anyone with dismorphia?