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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I feel like I have to choose between my religion and supporting trans rights

78 replies

DaughterofDawn · 30/03/2022 05:26

I am pagan. (If you aren’t familiar I’ll go into detail about this further down) I have always been an enthusiastic ally of LGBT+ rights.

If you know what a pagan is feel free to skip this paragraph. If not please read.
Pagan beliefs vary quite a bit so my beliefs may not represent or reflect what other pagan believe but essentially I believe in the earth and that everything on it humans, animals , trees, plants insects and even rocks have a spirit and that we are all connected and one. I also believe in balance between light and dark which is also the divine feminine and the divine masculine. And I also believe in something called the triple goddess which is the maiden, mother and crone which are the three spiritual stages of a woman’s life. You do not necessarily have to become a biological mother to experience the spirituality of the mother stage. You merely have to feel motherly concern towards others. This could be anything from watching over a beloved pet or caring for a friend or a family member.

Now that that is done. I went into detail about my personal beliefs because it’s important to the story. My religion has given me through a lot of hard times and mental health crisis. It has grounded me. I have have very loving spiritual journeys and self discoveries with both the divine feminine and masculine. They are deeply ingrained with who I am. Up until now I have always felt like my spirituality was compatible with LGBT+ rights and that anyone can experience the divine feminine or masculine no matter who they are, what they look like or what body parts they may have. The triple goddess is all about the cycles of life and the earth beginning middle and end. I love it it is beautiful. The thing I love most about my religion is that it was always a safe retreat for me when I was exhausted from drama and politics.

Why am I telling you this? Because now it no longer feels like a safe retreat. My friend who used to be pagan recently came after me and told me that my religious practice is transphobic because of the divine feminine, masculine and the triple goddess because it is gender binary and the triple goddess is especially transphobic because of the mother stage.

I was blown away and absolutely flabbergasted. She was really pushy that I needed to change my views. We argued about it because I disagreed. I told her that anyone can experience these things no matter where they fall on the gender spectrum. But she told me it was inciting violence because it would make non binary people feel disphoric. 😳😳😳 And then I went silent when she said if I don’t want to continue practicing am oppressive religion that I either need to drop the triple goddess and divine feminine/masculine or convert to agnostic/atheism. I was completely blind sided by this. She wasn’t always like this. I am really confused about what brought this on. The divine female/male and triple goddess are core to my practice. To remove them would be to remove a critical part of myself.

I feel lost because now she has made me feel as if my religion and trans rights are not compatible. I also feel like I lost a friend because I did not immediately came to her sudden extreme (in my view) demands. I tried talking to her later after calling down but she has completely written me off. I might add that this is really out of character for her.

Am I being unreasonable? Or is it my friend? I can’t give up on my religion or the divine feminine/masculine or the triple goddess. Does that make me transphobic? I’m feeling really lost please help. 😢

OP posts:
EishetChayil · 30/03/2022 09:15

I can empathise.

I'm a Reform Jew, and the TRA ideology has eaten through Reform Judaism like a cancer. It has actually pushed me towards the Orthodox side of the faith, which has its own issues with the treatment of women, but at least my daughter won't be asked if she's a girl or a boy, or subjected to a drag queen reading the Torah, or whatever utter shite Reform peddles.

aweegc · 30/03/2022 09:15

Paganism and Wicca drank the TWAW kool aid very early on. Your ‘friend’ is wrong.

This.

And I'd say that even if your religious beliefs are trans exclusionary (I don't see how they are any more than the Abrahamic religions are), that's ok. They actually don't have to include every type of identity, to the individual specifications of each individual with that identity. The trans movement itself isn't that keen on being welcoming and kind to everybody, isn't open to freedom of thought (unless in total agreement with their thoughts) and doesn't promote plurality.

Furthermore, there are people out there [warning to your friend] who are nonbinary and spread their masculine and feminine out over time slots. There are nonbinary people who follow paganism too. There's actually nothing about your views that couldn't be appropriated by a non-binary person - and already has been.

If your beliefs include actually advocating that trans people should be harmed or being actively hateful towards them, then that would be transphobia. As it is, you're just getting on with your religion, minding your own business from the sounds of things. Your friend should mind hers.

MedusasBadHairDay · 30/03/2022 09:17

Another Pagan here. While my beliefs aren't exactly the same as yours (eg. I don't believe in feminine/masculine energy) I do feel that three of the big focuses in Paganism are Nature, Cycles and Duality - God/Goddess, Male/Female, Night/Day, etc.

Acknowledging all of these does mean acknowledging the two sexes, and understanding that both are needed in order to continue the cycle of life.

I can't see how a faith so rooted in nature and therefore biology, can be expected to ignore sex entirely. However as its also a faith that tends to be more live and let live (as long as it doesn't harm others) and more inclusive than a lot of the big religions, I think there is space within it to acknowledge trans and nb feelings.

I think your friends is utterly out of order to dictate what you are allowed to believe. Personally I could no more stop believing in Paganism than I could stop my heart beating.

Fwiw I've seen women who've been active in Paganism for decades be accused of transphobia and stand strong against the accusations.

dollydimple123 · 30/03/2022 09:20

Pretty much every religion is transphobic? Christianity, Islam, Judaism. Good luck to your friend for trying to convert the whole world. You keep doing you and ignore her! X

AlisonDonut · 30/03/2022 09:25

Even trans people are tranphobic these days so I'd just crack on with your own life and not worry about anyone else.

Signalbox · 30/03/2022 09:26

You aren't being unreasonable. But you probably do fall into the "transphobic" category (as do 99% of the population).

Honestly you can only believe what you believe. If your friend was to convince you that your belief is "wrong", it is unlikely you will actually change your belief deep down. Neither paganism or gender identity ideology are grounded in evidence-based reality. You and your friend may as well be arguing about whether Judaism or Christianity is the truer religion. If you want to stay friends then just agree to disagree and avoid talking about it with each other.

ChateauMargaux · 30/03/2022 09:27

You can either choose to reflect her views back to her and show her how what she is saying is conversion, oppressive and judged inciting violence and that instead your position is about acceptance, exploring and recognising the inner energy in all of us. Recent converts are often the most zealous proponents of their new religions. I would thank her for her perspective and for giving you pause for thought and reflection and avoid future discussions.

StopStartStop · 30/03/2022 09:34

Don't swallow the trans nonsense. Stick to your beliefs. Hold fast to what you know to be true.

Sittingonabench · 30/03/2022 09:42

By her logic surely being trans is transphobic as it could exacerbate a non-binary persons dysphoria?
If you have managed to find a religion that brings you peace and is non-judgemental and that you love - then I think that’s pretty great! And I don’t see anything transphobic in what you’ve said.

Torunette · 30/03/2022 09:44

Wow!

Why on earth does your friend think she has the right to police your mind?! Why does she assume her thoughts and perspectives are so much more valid than yours?

Tell her to do one, and not come back until she has figured out how to live in a pluralist society.

Franklyfrost · 30/03/2022 09:45

You can celebrate women without being transphobic.

Lovelyricepudding · 30/03/2022 09:48

@Franklyfrost

You can celebrate women without being transphobic.
Not without changing the meaning of the word 'women' to include anyone and everyone and disassociating it from the reproductive role.
Pluvia · 30/03/2022 09:55

Is anyone else scratching their heads about why anyone who's GC would support a person to hold one set of irrational beliefs but not another?

It's all woo. Wicca, paganism, religion, spirituality, gender belief.. They're irrational belief systems.

monsterflake · 30/03/2022 09:56

We will all have our own personal values, beliefs and opinions and someone somewhere will always disagree. If something I do or say upsets someone then I will correct this, at least when in their company and apologise. However, no one is entitled to tell me how to think. You cannot change what you believe just because someone tells you to, the mind doesn't work that way!

Maybe the answer is to simply keep quiet about your beliefs around this person, although it doesn't sound like losing them as a friend entirely would be a huge tragedy to be honest!

WearyLady · 30/03/2022 10:03

Find a new friend.

MedusasBadHairDay · 30/03/2022 10:07

@Pluvia

Is anyone else scratching their heads about why anyone who's GC would support a person to hold one set of irrational beliefs but not another?

It's all woo. Wicca, paganism, religion, spirituality, gender belief.. They're irrational belief systems.

Depends on the exact strand of Paganism. For me it's merely a belief that nature is an incredible force that deserves our respect (minimising pollution, avoiding cruelty to animals, investing in healthcare etc) and celebration. Any gods and goddesses are merely symbols that enable us to focus celebrations and use story telling to explain and explore the world.

There's no requirement within Paganism to believe in the existence of deities, or to believe in divination or magic. Some do. But so do people within other religions and atheists too.

So I'd say my particular branch of Paganism is totally compatible with GC and atheist beliefs.

monsterflake · 30/03/2022 10:10

Also, sometimes it can appear as if trans activists (unsure if they are actual trans people) are searching for ways that many things may be offensive to the trans community rather than focusing on how trans people actually feel and what they want. I've only met a couple and all they as individuals have wanted was to be called by the name they introduce themselves as, and to be treated with respect and kindness the, the same as anyone else I've ever met.

Constantly picking at everything people do, say or even think is doing absolutely nothing for making trans people feel comfortable and accepted surely? That's going to cause an increase in transphobia as people will become afraid to have a normal conversation with a trans person in case they say something wrong and get labelled as an awful person!

FavEne · 30/03/2022 10:11

Hey OP. I'm a non-binary trans femme. I think this friend of yours is in the wrong here, and knowing nothing about them, I could only speculate as to where this has come from, but I'm personally not seeing anything gender essentialist about your beliefs.

I'm not sure why you'd come to Mumsnet for advice on whether something was transphobic, though.

Saltyquiche · 30/03/2022 10:17

Tell her you’re not willing to discuss religion with her and she can accept that or move on

Saltyquiche · 30/03/2022 10:18

You dont have to discuss your personal faith with anyone, it’s nobodies business

Saltyquiche · 30/03/2022 10:20

Sneezing is transphobic I’ve heard

Fenlandia · 30/03/2022 10:22

I'm not a pagan but you are perfectly entitled to your own beliefs (and I liked the way you framed your paganism) and being told you should change them because someone who is dissociated from their own body might be upset is unfair.

TinaYouFatLard · 30/03/2022 10:25

Is your friend a male type of woman by any chance?

Abhannmor · 30/03/2022 10:59

If anyone can access the divine Feminine or Masculine I should have thought your faith would be a good fit for trans people. About 7 miles from me are two breast shaped ⛰ mountains - the Paps of Anu. Naturally they are linked to the mother Goddess. Perhaps they should be levelled to assuage the gender extremists.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/03/2022 11:05

I think some people just like drama, OP.