There's a guy works down the chip-shop swears he's Elvis.

[9toenails]

... And there's a guy works up the office swears he's a woman.

What reason do we have to believe one rather than the other?

OK, it might be polite to pretend in some circumstances. But really, we know people make mistakes about who and what they are, do we not?

This is a serious question. Can anyone offer a reason to believe the transwoman's self-description that does not apply with equal force to that of the guy in the chip-shop?

This comes up again and again. But I have seen no argument from those who assume trans self-descriptions somehow must be true. Is there such an argument? How might it go?

[Just in case ... the guy who swears he is gay: this is different. Why? --Because to feel one is attracted to someone of the same sex just is to be attracted to someone of the same sex, whereas to feel one is Elvis is not to be Elvis.]

He’s not a woman. Of course. He’s a man who wants to be seen as a woman, and maybe in time will become a trans woman, but none of that is ‘being a woman’.

Forcing others to acknowledge an untruth is compelled speech.

That doesn’t mean that a trans person doesn’t deserve respect, of course they do, but others should not be forced to speak against the truth. Which is a man who is struggling with his gender identity or is a trans woman, is not the same as a woman.

Mmm.
I worked with a trans woman. Lovely person, worked in an otherwise all female team. We all got on swimmingly and she was a joy to manage.
But she was a trans woman non the less, and nit a woman.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the other 'identifying as' groups demand equal billing in the alphabet list: Furries, Bronies, Pups, 'Littles' - there's a lot of crossover already with some well-known trans activists being both at least, so it's only a matter of time.

Nobody can force you to believe that a man is a woman. You don’t have to validate other people’s beliefs. I am a Christian, but I don’t go round forcing atheists to say prayers.
Nor do I issue rape and death threats or call the police when someone says they don’t believe in God.
A transgender person must have a pretty shaky belief in their gender identity if they require continual forced validation from non believers to prop it up.

@IvyTwines

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the other 'identifying as' groups demand equal billing in the alphabet list: Furries, Bronies, Pups, 'Littles' - there's a lot of crossover already with some well-known trans activists being both at least, so it's only a matter of time.

Thats what the + means I believe Stonewall are actually counting pups, man babies etc.

There's a guy goes down the swim club, swears he's "woman,"
You men in charge of Penn State swear it's true,
Ranked four-six-two as a male, now beats Olympians,
Oh yes, he's a LIA, and you're misogynists too.

Actually I can believe someone who says he is a Bronie, ie. BIG fan of MLP. If he says he's a woman. Not buying it. Just as If the Bronie expected me to believe he actually was Twinkle Unicorn Neddy or whatever.

this link might be useful to give you a different perspective!!

hope this helps!

More fool you Jil Anders. I like Rick Astley.

Rick roll fail if the thumb nail pops up with the link, surely?

Saw Rick Astley opening for that comedian, Peter Kay, he was great. Peter Kay was alright.

@JillAnders

this link might be useful to give you a different perspective!! hope this helps!

'No debate', huh?

Silly fucker. Failed rickroll.

hope that helps

@JillAnders

this link might be useful to give you a different perspective!! hope this helps!

It’s 2005 again! Does this mean I get to do-over the past 17 years? Cos that would be really handy.

Interesting the brainless ones chose this thread to troll.

Any ideas why?

@ATeamAmy

There's a guy goes down the swim club, swears he's "woman," You men in charge of Penn State swear it's true, Ranked four-six-two as a male, now beats Olympians, Oh yes, he's a LIA, and you're misogynists too.

Hope I'm not de-railing anything to tell you I like your poetry.

Ah look who popped up after the lovely Rick Astley

Ha ha, thanks, and thanks for OP referencing the Kirsty McColl song. Every time I see "Lia Thomas", my brain changes it to "liar". Perfect song and lyrics for a bit of a play on words about that git.

Interesting rick roll derail. Maybe the lyrics to this song just hit home perfectly. It's all about lying, fantasist men after all. Why shouldn't anyone be able to claim to be anything they like? Why can some men claim they are women or cats, but a bloke can't claim he's Elvis?

There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's elvis
Just like you swore to me that you'd be true
There's a guy works down the chip shop swears he's elvis
But he's a liar and I'm not sure about you

Yes, indeed, Amy .

Thing is, though, too, that even if the guy down the chippy is not a liar if he is completely sincere in his claim we still have no reason to believe he is Elvis.

Likewise the guy who claims to be a woman: even if he is completely sincere in his claim and fully believes it himself, we still have no reason to think he is what he says he is,

Some people seem to think we should take self-defined women on trust. It seems important to be clear that even if the guy really, really feels he is a woman, most sincerely swears he is a woman, and is not lying about how he feels ... still we have no more reason to think he is a woman than we do to think the guy down the chippy is Elvis.

Of course we might be kind : "Cod and chips twice, please, Elvis ... and a portion of mushy peas."

@9toenails

Yes, indeed, Amy .

Thing is, though, too, that even if the guy down the chippy is not a liar if he is completely sincere in his claim we still have no reason to believe he is Elvis.

Likewise the guy who claims to be a woman: even if he is completely sincere in his claim and fully believes it himself, we still have no reason to think he is what he says he is,

Some people seem to think we should take self-defined women on trust. It seems important to be clear that even if the guy really, really feels he is a woman, most sincerely swears he is a woman, and is not lying about how he feels ... still we have no more reason to think he is a woman than we do to think the guy down the chippy is Elvis.

Of course we might be kind : "Cod and chips twice, please, Elvis ... and a portion of mushy peas."

And this is why the gender ideology is so very strongly trying to eradicate the idea that women are adult female human beings. If they succeed in that, then everyone is whatever gender they state they are, though others obviously have no way of telling beforehand and sexists will continue discriminating against some people for mysterious reasons.

But I do think that in most cases people are trying to be kind, though NEVER towards the so-called TERFs. Some groups' rights or definitions outweigh other groups' rights and older definitions.

I always think of that guy in prison in Scotland (Andrew Burns) - a totally scary piece of work, who's been described as one of the most dangerous prisoners in the country. Been through several namechanges. Called himself Obi-Wan Kenobi for a while. Did the prison guards believe he had Jedi powers? Did they have to treat him as a Jedi (whatever that would mean)? I think not.

He also called himself Mighty Almighty for a while. Do you think he got treated like God? Doubt it.

But when he started calling himself Tiffany, suddenly he could demand female prison staff to search him (the women refused, but had to get their unions involved to support them), and all the newspapers started calling him "she"... Somehow this is totally different?

.... he's a liar!

Have been Kirsty Mcalling all day.

'He's a liar and I'm not sure about you'

@ATeamAmy

There's a guy goes down the swim club, swears he's "woman," You men in charge of Penn State swear it's true, Ranked four-six-two as a male, now beats Olympians, Oh yes, he's a LIA, and you're misogynists too.

!

Rick Ashley once wrote a song called Ruddy Big Pig and that is my favourite fact about him ever.

(Sorry for the derail, just who wouldn’t love to hear a song called that?)

I wrote Astley thanks autocorrect you swine!